58. Transform Your Sex Life: A Guide for Ambitious Women with Dr. Jenn Kennedy
Have you ever wondered why your sex life feels more like a chore than pleasure?
This week, we’re joined by Dr. Jenn Kennedy, a board-certified sex therapist with a PhD in clinical sexology who specializes in helping women reconnect with their pleasure. We have a candid conversation about women's pleasure, desire, and the barriers that keep us from experiencing truly satisfying intimacy. If you're an ambitious woman who's mastered every area of your life except the bedroom, this episode is especially for you.
Together, we explore the misconceptions about female desire, the impact of shame and anxiety on our sex lives, and practical strategies for communicating your needs. Dr. Jenn brings a refreshing perspective that challenges the notion that sex should be spontaneous, effortless, or penetration-focused, and she frames pleasure as an essential component of a well-rounded life.
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What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
How to shift from viewing sex as a chore to embracing it as an essential part of your well-being.
Why most female desire is responsive rather than spontaneous.
How to communicate your sexual needs without awkwardness by having conversations outside the bedroom.
Why expanding your definition of sex beyond penetration can lead to more satisfying experiences for women.
How shame and anxiety function as the primary barriers to a fulfilling sex life, especially for high-achieving women.
The connection between masculine/feminine energy balance and your ability to experience pleasure and vulnerability.
A simple two-minute practice to maintain intimacy during busy periods.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Full Episode Transcript:
Nina: Hey everyone, Nina here. Just a heads up that this episode contains pretty explicit language. So if you have little ones in the room, you might want to grab your AirPods or hit save and come back to listen later. Okay, let’s jump in.
Kelle: Today, we're talking about pleasure.
Nina: Yeah, more specifically, our pleasure and pain when it comes to sex and sexuality. We wanted to have this conversation out in the open because I think what I'm hearing out there isn't really fun or interesting.
Kelle: Yeah. Yeah, that's why we're bringing you a special guest today. I'm so pumped to have Dr. Jenn Kennedy here.
Nina: Yes. I mean, listen, how many women out there aren't having great sex? Or it's just okay and they don't know how to make it better or what that would even look like?
Kelle: And so many aren't having sex at all, right? Like, it's another to-do, checked off the list.
Nina: Totally. There's no use or urgency to create more passion in your life, right?
Kelle: Tapping into your femininity in a sexual way may feel like so far out and so foreign.
Nina: So let's get into this. Let's have a unique discussion with Dr. Jenn about sex and women's pleasure, specifically for our ambitious high-achieving listeners, right? Because a woman who understands her pleasure and potential in this area, a woman who understands how to turn her desire on and off, and who can confidently express what she wants, that woman is freaking unstoppable.
Kelle: Yeah, we want to live in a world where more women are more like that. When you can step into more pleasure, when it becomes a priority, it unlocks more creativity and confidence and abundance and satisfaction and focus in your life. And honestly, a more awe inspiring sense of empowerment.
Nina: Oh my gosh, let's get going. Can't wait here. This is Ambitious-Ish.
Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Kelle: Hey, I'm Kelle.
Nina: And I'm Nina. Okay, Dr. Jenn, let's get rolling here. Thank you for being on Ambitious-Ish.
Jenn: Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Nina: Yeah. So, before we dive in, for the busy women we have who are listening now, who've taken the time to be here, what might change for this person if they take what you say today? What would they learn from you and how would it change their life?
Jenn: Well, I feel like it rounds out their life. Right? It's like they're charging toward a lot, I'm guessing. They are very driven, they are very successful. But I want them to also be well rounded. I want them to also feel some of the rewards of their big ambitious, successful life. And this is the pleasure part. This is the rewards and this is the joyous part. So this is stopping to sort of enjoy kind of all of it. So, yeah.
Kelle: Cool.
Nina: Yeah, totally landing here. Why don't you, well, why don't I introduce you just a little bit and then we can sort of round this out too. So Dr. Jenn, you earned a Master's in clinical psychology, a PhD in clinical sexology. You're a board certified sex therapist. You've been working with individuals and couples in the area of sexual satisfaction, dysfunction, and interpersonal communication for years, right? And you offer small group programs as well as one-on-one intensive coaching programs, right?
Jenn: Yep. That's right.
Nina: Yeah. Tell us what else is on your plate.
Jenn: I know that's a lot. Well, it's all, you know, one thing has led to the next. And so as I've been sitting with clients, I find kind of what's the next thing they need. And so the intensives have been sort of an outgrowth because I find that sometimes the one-on-one model doesn't work. Also, I'm only one person. And so as I, my schedule has filled up, I find that I can only do so many one-on-one appointments. And so the group model has grown out of that.
And also the group model is a different opportunity for people to learn from one another because the group model gives you a chance to sort of hear echoes of what you've been feeling inside, but you know, you can't always hear that from your therapist because the therapist can't share in the same way. And so when you hear it from other people that are experiencing similar things, the learning is exponentially faster. So it's actually kind of a cool way for me to kind of help multiple people at the same time and for them to help one another. So that's sort of an outgrowth.
The intensives also expedite learning. So that's been cool. Simultaneously, I've also realized that some people just don't want to do the group model because they're sheepish about sharing or they just can't fit into that time frame or the price point is too expensive. So now I'm doing an asynchronous group, meaning I've recorded it. So that will be coming out in probably another month. And so people can just buy it and do it at their own self-paced time. So that's next. Yeah.
Nina: I love how you say just in some of your materials that like sex shouldn't feel like a mystery, a hassle or a messy complicated thing you avoid, right?
Jenn: Yes. Right. Those are the checkpoints of what women tend to reflect back as like why they don't have sex.
Kelle: I know when Nina and I were talking about bringing you on, I was like, okay, who cares about sex? Like, I feel like kind of like what we talked about is kind of one of those things you have to check off the list. And we have clients that are like have this amazing sex life and they talk about it in the context of our coaching. And I'm just like, huh, I wonder what that…
Jenn: What’s that like?
Nina: What is that like? Well, part of this, right, is about how women can connect with themselves in a pleasurable way too, like with curiosity and practice and compassion, I'm guessing, first?
Jenn: Some women find it very easy to tune in. Like there's just, there's those women that just very easily do that. They've always done it. They have a very easy sex drive. They go there easily. It just makes sense to them, right? But that's not the majority, I would say. There are some women that just can go there, but lots of women can't do that. So that's, you know, good for them. But there's lots of women that they can't do that.
Nina: Yeah, this kind of brings in some of those like assumptions, right? And like there's a lot of them out there that we should have spontaneous desire, right? And then I know you think I think you call it, Jenn, subsequent arousal in the body, right? That this is all just should all just be happening magically for women, right? Easily.
Jenn: Well, yeah, there's the responsive desire versus like the, yeah, the spontaneous. So that the idea that it's more - and I actually think most desire is responsive, even if it's not so conscious, that even if it's not, you're not aware of what the stimuli was, that there's something that you're responding to. It might be yourself, it might be something that happened earlier, you know, you don't know, it's not so obvious.
It's not like you're just like, you said something to me and I'm responding. It might have been something that happened earlier like in a movie that you're responding to. But I think most of it is is responsive. I don't think most of the time we're just organically like, oh, turned on.
Kelle: That just makes me think about like, what do you think about scheduled sex? Like and scheduled intimacy and like just like doing it even when you don't really feel like it, right?
Jenn: Well, okay, scheduled sex for a busy person, I think is a great idea, actually. Because I don't know about you, but I work great on schedules. I love schedules. I make lists of everything. I am such a type A++. And if I know that something is on my schedule, then I start not do I just do it, but I also orient my brain. It's a blueprint of how I start to line up my day, right?
So it matters in terms of when I start packaging one thing up and move towards the next task. You know, I start preparing. I start thinking about if I know that I have date night, for example, it affects how much I eat at lunch. It affects what I wear that day. It affects how much sleep I get. It affects what meetings I put before it. Like it's a whole scheduling thing that I prepare in lots of ways so that I am psychologically ready for that encounter so that I can be more present. Right?
But if it just pops up and says, hey, I'm like, uh. Like I wasn't ready for that. I'm - I’m no. I don't have good underwear on. No. Hang on. I'm not gonna do that. Hang on. I don't like I don't like surprises. I don't. I'm a scheduler. I'm a planner. So some people are different and they're just like, yeah, let's go. But my wiring is not that way. And so I appreciate a good schedule.
And so that's different than have it when you don't want to. But I do think the value of scheduling and some anticipation for certain personality types is quite helpful. Now, the other thing is getting your mind on board because I think often times, if you just ask a woman especially, do you want to have sex in this moment? The answer is going to be no.
But if there's some ambivalence, and then there's some like sort of warm up, and some like let it be in the no or maybe sort of category for a while. And then there's some back and forth in a positive way, it tends to move towards. I mean, typically it takes, I think statistically there's been like studies that show about 14 to 17 minutes of foreplay before a woman moves towards readiness. So, you know, it takes some warm up. You need some active foreplay before she's going to move towards physiological readiness and enough stimulation.
Nina: So that's interesting, ladies, right listeners?
Jenn: Don't just think you should be out of the gates ready to go.
Kelle: I have a friend that she was telling me that her husband like will start rubbing her back and she's just like, oh God, okay.
Nina: That’s his cue.
Kelle: I guess, I guess, I guess this is what we're doing now.
Jenn: Ding ding ding ding.
Kelle: This is where we're going.
Nina: Let me get myself psyched up here. But just to back up for a sex - just to back up for a sec, Jenn, what are like the main reasons women come to you? What are the main reasons why someone comes to you?
Jenn: It varies. So there I mean the general categories are dysfunction and dissatisfaction.
Nina: And when you say dysfunction, can you explain?
Jenn: So dysfunction would be it's not working right for how I want it to. So that could be dryness, that could be low desire is sort of the clinical term. Low desire meaning I just don't want it or I want to want it, but I don't. It could be pain with penetration. It could be involuntary spasming. It could be I have so much fear or avoidance around sex. It could be a disgust response related to any sort of touch.
It could be after, you know, if there's been low-level trauma or high-level trauma, it could be a lot of fear, you know, related to any sort of physical intimacy. So sometimes it's, you know, I do EMDR and some of those types of somatic protocols to help desensitization and trauma processing. So, yeah, it comes in through different avenues.
Yeah, of like it's the sex and and I see a lot of couples too. So sometimes it's the couple coming in saying, we've never had a good sex life or our sex life went off a cliff after kids. Oh my gosh, that happens a lot and we just never repaired it.
You know, a lot of times these couples are 50 or 60. They're not little kids. They're they've been living with a bad sex life for 10 or 15 years. And they're now usually empty nesters and they're like looking at each other thinking, do we want to get this train back on the tracks? Or are we going to go our own ways now? You know? So it's interesting sort of, I've got a couple right now who are 75 and 80. Like one's 75 and one's 80 and they're coming in because the man's starting to experience erectile dysfunction. And I'm like…
Nina: Good on him.
Jenn: Just now? Good job. I was like, wow, that’s amazing.
Kelle: All right.
Jenn: And I love that you're prioritizing this.
Nina: But question there though, how uncommon or common is erectile dysfunction?
Jenn: So common.
Nina: So common, right? I mean…
Jenn: So common. And it becomes more and more common by the decades. So men in their 50s it starts, but 60s, 70s, 80s, yes, it's going to definitely be there. So I see men and women and I see lots of couples. I mean, my programs really focus on women because men, I'll tell you, men get very weird and sheepish about coming together with one another in groups and talking about their dysfunction. I wish they weren't, but they'll come into couples therapy, but they won't do groups. I haven't gotten them to do it so far anyway. But women will.
Women are very cooperative and will come in and talk about it and get a lot of benefit from it. So I've been able to do the groups with them and they've seen a lot of progress in it. But the men will not. So that's why that programming is geared towards women. But the men will come into therapy and talk about it with, you know, with their partners because they do want the help and they'll be very vulnerable in that context. I hear a lot of the frustration and vulnerability. I do see it from the men.
Nina: So again, just going back to sort of misconceptions or assumptions that are made out there that maybe you can help us deconstruct. You know, one being what I mentioned earlier that, you know, women aren't we need this like seven to 14 minute kind of like warm up, right? We're not necessarily geared towards spontaneous desire or arousal, right? Like in the moment. Are there other sort of assumptions or misconceptions that are notable that we can kind of look at?
Jenn: Well, you know what's interesting, just to kind of counter that point that I made, and I always find this funny is that with partnered sex, it takes say an average of about 15 or 16 minutes. With solo sex, it takes like two minutes, right? Have you noticed that?
Nina: Yeah.
Jenn: Right? I can I mean, I mean, I can orgasm in like two minutes with myself, but it takes forever with the partner.
Kelle: Yeah, it's so much more efficient, right?
Jenn: Romancing yourself. You know, you just know right how to get to it. Yeah, what other assumptions? I always find it interesting when, you know, women don't haven't ever masturbated or, you know, I find that sometimes that there's a correlative in my practice with religiosity. You know, if people have been raised in a faith based environment, the carry over of that, even if they're not still steeped in that faith, that there's still some of those pieces that tend to go with that.
And a lot of times there's hesitancy to have self touch. There's a lot of shyness, men and women to feel like that is wrong or that feels dirty or, you know, and they don't know their own body. And if you don't know your own body, it's going to be harder to have pleasurable experiences with anybody else because you don't know the road map. You don't know how to tell your partner how to touch you. Good luck.
Kelle: Oh, so interesting. Nina, this is like when our clients come to us and they have a money story, right? Or they have a food story or a body story, right? And we help them uncover like, okay, what in your past, what kind of beliefs and stories and rules have you made up about that part of your life that's making you act in this way and think in all that way?
Jenn: Yes, like they’re being backlit.
Kelle: Yes. So I see like for you, it's like, oh, what is your sex story? What have you like learned and been taught about sex and intimacy and all of that.
Jenn: Well, and also within a faith-based construct, often times it's basically been don't do it. Don't want it, don't touch it, don't do anything related to it until you're married. And then once you're married, go for it. Well, you can't just like make that shift.
And so I see all these newly married couples and they're like, we thought it was going to be the glory days once we got married and it's not because they don't have any of those relational skills. Again, they don't have relationship to self. They don't know how to engage in this way that feels moderate and they haven't done the adolescent skill building along the way. And so their sex life is just so unbalanced and sort of, it is kind of adolescent, it looks adolescent even though they're adults and it's really tricky and there's just so much shame. Yeah, shame is often times what is derailing a good sex life. Shame and anxiety.
Nina: Shame and anxiety. I imagine that gets in the way when we want to ask for pleasure or when we have desire too. I mean, that's just a block.
Jenn: Yeah, it's like, what do I deserve?
Nina: That's what it comes down to, right? Like, what do I deserve? And like, how do I even ask for that? Am I worthy of that?
Jenn: And as a logical question, do I deserve it sounds so like, well, of course I do. But really, do I deserve to ask for you to attend to my sexual needs? It kind of feels big, you know? Women are inherently like kind of pleasers and deferential in our culture. And so for you to prioritize your own needs equally to your partners, probably doesn't happen.
Kelle: I'm so glad you said that, Dr. Jenn, because what our people, like our community, not has issues with, but just like they're so used to being like fiercely independent. And to ask for their needs, ask for what they want is really difficult for them because they're like, um, he should just know, like they should just know what I want. Right? They should know what I like by now. What do what do you think about that?
Jenn: The mind reading thing doesn't really work in sex because we're not all the same. You probably don't necessarily want in bed what I want in bed. So it's not like, you know, one size fits all. It's like you're unique and so you do need to give that road map to your partner. And I wouldn't even say I like the same things I liked when I was 20.
Nina: Where were we the other day, Kel? We were having coffee with our friend. Do you remember this? And she's like, blow jobs. Who does blow jobs anymore? Didn't that end in our 30s? And I just started laughing. I was like…
Kelle: We were on the floor in this coffee shop. Yeah.
Nina: Oh my god, it was so funny.
Jenn: That’s so 2000.
Nina: I just started laughing. Yeah, so everyone's very different there. But where do you have someone kind of begin when it comes to asking for their needs? This is very much our community, you know, when they want to explore more pleasure and of course, feel more connected to their partner. I mean, this is a huge part of enjoying your ambition, right? Is feeling connected with your family and partner. You know, and loving that part of your life. So where does someone like this is one of the most pleasurable needs we can fulfill for ourselves. Like so where does someone start there?
Jenn: Yeah. Well, I kind of see the bedroom as like a microcosm to the larger life. So I definitely would say if people are struggling to do it in the bedroom, maybe start in the larger picture of the day to day. So how do you negotiate needs outside of the bedroom with your partner?
You know, if that muscle needs to be flexed, do it there first. You know, do it in the kitchen. Do it in the everyday. Can you have some of those conversations on maybe more neutral topics rather than doing something that's as tender as body based or erotic based? Can you do that and see how that goes?
Because I feel like if you feel like your needs are getting met or if you feel like you can have those kinds of negotiations successfully and your partner is receptive and respectful, then you've already kind of had that experience and then you can do it in this other way and it's more likely to go well because you've had that experience and you've got some language, some foundational knowledge of that person being a reasonable…
Nina: Yeah, there's like evidence for your brain, right?
Jenn: Yeah, that they will meet you there. The other thing you can do is actually have a conversation about eroticism, not in the bedroom, which also feels a little bit strange, but it's kind of sexy to do that. Like if you're just having your morning coffee, you know, or you're on a date and you're saying to your partner, can we talk about what I really like in bed?
Then it's more theoretical and you're not in the moment of saying, here's what I want you to do to me right now, right? It's like instead then you're sort of like it's you're building anticipation, but you're also kind of giving a roadmap and you can sort of see and have a discussion about it, but without it being on the line right then and there. That's another way to do it and they can sort of respond and they can marinate on it and they can ask questions. That's another way to sort of neutralize it a little bit and give some space to like let them kind of like digest it and come back and like yeah.
Nina: Sure. We actually suggest to clients to have like financial conversations outside of the house too or like, you know, outside of the kitchen table. Like go out, have a slice of pizza and a glass of wine with your partner. You know what I mean? Like do it somewhere else because at home there's just energy, right?
Jenn: Yeah. Sometimes in the moment, right when you drop it, if you're then expected to put the skill into practice right away, it can kind of feel like a lot. So they might need to go do some research. They might need to like think about it logistically. Who knows, you know? But I also feel like either of those have the skill building outside or have the discussion about sex, you know, in a neutral, then try to put it into practice. I don't know. I think either of those can feel a little lower pressure.
Kelle: I'm like raising my hand because I'm like a light bulb just went off and I'm like, oh, these are actual skills we can develop. That's amazing. That's awesome. Good to know. Tell us more. Tell us more about the skill development because that's like so compelling to me.
Jenn: Well, people come in all the time. I I swear, the number one thing when people call into a therapy office, couples anyway, and you know, what do you want to work on? Like communication. You know, and it's like communication. Okay, well that is so vague. What do you mean? Like do you not speak the same language?
But sex and relationships are a language and there is all this like missed discussion, missed translation of what do you actually mean? What are you trying to tell me? And yeah, I feel like sometimes it is about translating what do you need from me? What are you trying to tell me? There's implicit and explicit, right? There's what you're saying, and then there's what you actually mean.
And so sometimes it is skill building. It's trying to figure out for me sitting in the in the sort of interpreter's chair of therapist, how do I help these two people start to be a little more vulnerable, but like actually start to see what they need from one another and witness each other a little bit differently and experience things rather than just rinse and repeat what they've already done a bunch of times. I mean, I ask like what have you guys done in the past just so that I'm kind of aware of what they've tried and then I try to introduce ways to interrupt that and try something different.
Nina: Yeah, I mean when someone says they just want more sex, that's not true. It is true, but it's not the whole story. Do you know what I mean? So it's not just about like giving that person more sex, right? You're right. There's like more understanding and curiosity that needs to happen there. And I can totally see how someone like you might help peel back the layers and so they're understanding each other more. Like what exactly does more mean?
Jenn: That's a great question. A lot of times I feel like in heterosexual couples, the guy will come in wanting more sex. And so it seems like it's a frequency issue, but when I ask about what is the function of sex? Like tell me more about what sex means to you because the wife is sitting there like she's like sort of the guardian of the body and he's like, let me in. And she's like, no.
And it's like, okay, what is this about for you? Help me understand what does sex actually mean for you? That changes the frame a little bit and that is a helpful conversation because typically, he doesn't actually just want to get off because he can do that by himself, right? There's something else that's actually that he's hungering for.
He's often times wanting something more like connection, he's wanting, he's wanting touch, but he's often wanting like attention or validation or he wants to feel relevant or desired or something else is going on. And that can be achieved without necessarily penetrative sex. There's something else. I mean, if it's that insatiable, then something else is going on. Right?
Does he need attention from peers? Does he need attention from self? Does he need the attention in another way? Or does he need more quality attention from her that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be met as sexual touch? Because I find that if if he can get more quality attention then it doesn't necessarily always have to be sex.
Kelle: Mhm. Mhm. And you said like penetrative, right? And it's like, oh, there's so much more to sex than penetration. But that's kind of what we think of when we think of like talking about sex.
Nina: So that's a great call. Actually, when we talked to you a couple weeks ago, we were like, wait, we need to define sex. What is sex? Right? And with your partner, too.
Jenn: Mhm. Well, and that's again, that's a heterosexual construct because we think of sex equals penetration in the heterosexual world, whereas gay sex is lots of things. We find that when they've done studies, same sex attracted women are the most satisfied and they're having all kinds of sex. They define sex as holding, touching, kissing, sometimes penetration, but a lot of times not body to body contact, all kinds of things.
And they're having the most orgasms, they're having the most like longest love making sessions because they can't as easily penetrate because they don't have organs that do that, right? So they're forced to do something else. So it's kind of interesting. So if you expand, and I have this conversation a lot when erectile dysfunction is coming into the room, what else can we do? Right?
And when men have to sort of rethink, well, first of all, a flaccid penis still works. I mean, it still has sensation, but you have to detach from this huge attachment you have to this organ is suddenly like has to be reframed. And what else can you do? And you don't just ignore it. You know, you can still attend to it. It just looks different. And also, there's lots of other erogenous zones throughout the body that we can attend to that feel really, really nice.
Nina: Jenn, don't you have a graphic of this, the erogenous zones?
Jenn: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. I have a graphic. I can share. You could put it in the in the show notes. Yeah, that's one of the things we talk about in The Pleasure Circle is getting away from just this huge focus on penetrative sex because for the most part, women are like, yeah, great. Okay, that boom, done. That felt good sort of. But a lot of women can't even orgasm that way. So they're not that into it. You know, I mean, it kind of feels good, maybe, but like it's really not that that's not where the gold is. You know?
Nina: Did you hear that everyone?
Jenn: I think a lot more women would want sex if sex was more pleasurable for them. And so if we can attend to the body as a whole more, I think it would go better. You'd want it more because it would feel better.
Kelle: This is all so interesting to me because just saying penis and penetration out loud, like on the airwaves where people are going to hear us like…
Nina: We’ll have to see.
Jenn: Now you're going to have to now you're going to have to move that little slot that says explicit because now we've said the bad words.
Kelle: Well, it's so funny because I go back to - my husband is a doctor. And when I was talking with our kids about this, when they were younger, I would say penis or vagina. And he would be like, why are you saying those words to our kids? I'm like, are you kidding me? Those are like actually the words. It's not like the vajayjay or hoo hoo or like…
Nina: What’s interesting though, out of curiosity Kel, what did he think you would do? Nothing against anyone here, but just curious.
Kelle: Pee pee for penis or like just not saying like the adult word because it just felt like, I don't know, maybe like too adult for him. But those are just going back to those stories that maybe he grew up with. And we had a money episode a few episodes ago, and it's true, like everyone's got their own money story and going back to those stories of like, oh, are we even supposed to talk about this? Are we supposed to say these words out loud? Like this is so awkward, right?
Jenn: I catch myself when I say penis, when I say erection, when I say penetration, when I say any of those words, I'm like, Is this going to be okay? But it's the word. It's the word that is relevant to the moment. And I try to keep everything really clinical and it's the word that is appropriate. I'm not being, you know, salacious, like it's the word.
Nina: My son, my 12 year old just had the talk in school and came home the other night. He had a lot of questions and I was like, well, I don't have a penis, but let's do this. Let's figure, you know, let's just have this conversation. I'll do the best I can. And I think I nailed it. I think I did a good job.
Kelle: Nailed it, Nina.
Jenn: Hopefully it's the first first of several talks, but yes.
Nina: Yeah. I think it's cool when it happens in school because it is just another opportunity. We've definitely made it happen.
Jenn: Good job. You didn't shy away.
Nina: Yeah, no. I mean, I think too.
Jenn: I never had the talk.
Nina: Oh, wow. Isn't that interesting, right?
Jenn: I was like 30 years old before I could figure out what the three holes were. Like I knew there were three, but I did not understand what the third was about. I was like, what?
Kelle: Yeah, so interesting. Okay. I'm wondering, you know, we have a like a lot of the people that we work with, both men and women, because we do work with both. They're in survival and it's like being in burnout or survival. The last thing you want to think about is having sex. I mean, or at least that's what a lot of our clients. They're just like, I don't even have time to like go to the bathroom without someone bothering me. So what do you have to say for those?
Jenn: Yeah. I get that. And I'm not going to talk them out of that. I don't think you have to, but also you're not a robot. You know, this life is what do you want it to be? I mean, yes, productivity matters. Yes, success matters. But also you want to have some life balance. And sex is in a different realm. It's in the pleasure realm. It's in the play realm. It's in the joy, discovery, curiosity realm. And I think that that's a zone that why are you doing all this hard work?
Nina: Totally. We talk about this a lot, you know, when it comes to just what Kelle and I call resilience, right Kel, when we want to - a resilient nervous system is a healthy one. And so we need rest. We need exercise, we need motion, and we also need play. And that's where sex comes in, right? And that's where like humor and fun, capital F, fun, you know, that's this bucket, right? And this is what is so neglected by so many of the women we work with, so many, so many people in general. This isn't unusual.
Jenn: I think there has to be some of that. Otherwise you're going to charge into burnout. If you don't allow at least a sliver of that wellness for balance into the fun, then I think it's not sustainable.
Nina: So what happens, like this is not uncommon. I have so many friends right now who are like, okay, it's been like three weeks. This has never happened before. Is this a red flag? Are we going over a cliff? Like what's happening? There's the drift if you will, taking place in the relationship. And so is this a problem? And what might you recommend or suggest in a repair here?
Jenn: Meaning it's been three weeks since they've had sex?
Nina: Mhm. Which is unusual for them. So that's just this this particular situation. That's unusual for them. Not everyone.
Jenn: Yeah, I guess think about, you know, it's I don't like to have it be so qualitative necessarily like, you know, looking at the calendar and exactly keeping track. Some people in relationships do that. But more looking at what's going on for them? How connected do they feel to self? How connected do they feel to each other? It's almost like they're like a little submarine. They're just like charging around. It's like pop your little, you know, top up, look around, go look over a partner and go, hey, how are you? What's going on over there?
Nina: Yeah, or like I'm noticing this and this isn't a problem, but I'm noticing and yeah.
Jenn: Because sex is just one component. How connected do you feel to them? It's not separate. It's part of the bigger picture. And so go sit next to that person and gaze into their eyes and just sort of spend a couple minutes. You know, I get it when you're a busy executive, you don't have time to be doing all this like mushy gushy stuff.
But can you do 10 minutes of quality time? Can you do a real focused check in with somebody and say, how are you really? And just that might be all you've got. But can you do that? I'd say, you know, the Gottmans would say, can you do a two-minute makeout session with your partner? Maybe that's all you got.
Nina: And even the Gottmans will have you like kind of just gaze into each other's eyes with a two minute timer.
Jenn: Yeah, just something like that.
Kelle: I'm glad you just said that about gazing into each other's eyes because I do this with my dog all the time. I'll just like grab her face and tell her how much I love her and like look her in the eyes. And the other day I was like, I should actually do this with my family members too that are not furry, right?
Nina: Isn't that interesting?
Kelle: Yeah. Just the eye contact is so intimate.
Jenn: And the oxytocin release with pets is so lovely, right? Just like that sweetness. And we can get that with humans too, right? And I just want to - I want to acknowledge being busy is really hard. It's hard to downshift. It's hard to prioritize. You're just like, you've got all these people coming at you. You've got all these projects and priorities.
But taking a moment, hitting pause, taking a walk around the block, even sending a sweet text to someone that you care about, right? And just sending a flirty text, right? Sending that text also does something for you. Right? It does something to the receiver, but it does something to the sender too. Right? It's a little zinger and it it leaves you with something too.
Kelle: And I love that you just said that. Totally. Well, we say that the quality of our relationships depends on or is determined by the quality of our thoughts about the other person. So if we're thinking good thoughts, like that makes us feel good. It doesn't even have anything to do with them. So you're right, sending the text or like sending a hot email to them, like feels so good to you and also like feels good to them. It's a win win. I love it.
Jenn: Yeah. And it’s, you know, it is a decision to make them a priority and it's maintaining a relationship. And we do it all the time. We maintain business relationships, we, you know, you keep a lot of plates spinning. And also, like I just took a walk this morning and on that walk I thought, do I want to listen to an audio book? Do I want to call a family member? Do I want to just be in nature? You know?
Like I'm trying to decide how productive do I want to be and how present do I want to be? You know, I grabbed actually a sprig of rosemary as I passed a bush and I like smelled it as I listened to an audiobook. You know, and I thought, I'm not going to call anybody. I'm just going to listen, listen to my book and I'm going to smell and I'm going to do that.
Nina: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's so interesting when we dive into a conversation like this is that, you know, Kelle and I talk a lot about masculine and feminine energy and so many of our clients come to coaching just very unbalanced in that energy. You know, they're very - they lean heavily into their masculine energy and it's kind of there are two different sort of levels of masculine. There's empowered and disempowered and it's a whole another episode. We'll put it in the show notes.
But tapping into your feminine energy in a sexual way is just where we want to go kind of here today, right? It's of course finding balance with masculine and feminine, but then it's also leaning into that feminine energy in like a sexual way.
Kelle: Yes. Yeah. What do you see with that, Dr. Jenn?
Jenn: Yeah, I think that we have both masculine and feminine energy in all of us. And it's the take charge as well as the relinquish. I recently actually was at a retreat in Costa Rica with Esther Perel and she had us do this wonderful activity of Kink sort of light. And she brought in this gal that that did some rope play. We we partnered up and it was really interesting to be led and to be both in the dominant and the submissive roles.
And that reminded me sort of of the masculine and feminine that we're talking about here. And to relinquish, to allow. I spend a lot of time. I'm a boss lady. I run a company. I guide a lot of people. I understand that it's hard to then step down and be in a feminine role and to be in a submissive, I'm using that, you know, in the way of allowing vulnerability to come in erotically. And yet, it feels really nice. But to be in a in that role, you have to feel like the person you're relinquishing is very confident and capable and…
Nina:Trustworthy. I'm feeling the T word big time here.
Kelle: Trustworthy and safety. Yeah.
Jenn: Yeah, that they've got it, that they know what they're doing, that they're ready for that role, that they can manage it, that they know me well enough that they’ve, you know, that if the trust fall, they're going to catch you, you know, and it's just really important. And so if there's any faltering in that, then I'm going to run back into my masculine and take over, you know?
So, you know, I think it's a delicate balance and I see this with men too. You know, men want to give up control. How many men have gone to a dominatrix because they, you know, these boss men want to give up control. It's hard to stay in control all the time. People want to let go. And that's normal for all of us, all of us high achievers to want to sometimes also - we get decision fatigue.
Nina: I just want to do it. It's like all or nothing. It's that all or nothing thinking, right? Our clients either all in or all out. And yeah. Totally.
Jenn: I don't even want to decide what's for dinner. Exactly. I don't want to decide anything more.
Nina: And that's when the resentment comes in, right? Because they want you we want them to be able to read our minds and have these high expectations and then everything explodes in our face.
Jenn: I don't know what I want for sex. I don't know what I want for dinner. I don't know what I want to wear. I don't know. Just like help, right? So I think it's really nice in partnership sometimes to just let go and let the other person sort of take the lead, take the ropes, you know?
Kelle: Drop the rope. Drop the rope like Nina always says. Yeah.
Nina: Yeah. Jenn, it's been so cool talking with you. Why don't you just tell us quickly, you have a group opening up?
Jenn: Yeah.
Nina: Go ahead, tell us everything.
Jenn: So the small group intensive that I lead a couple times a year, we have one that is going to be running. It starts April 16th. So it's perfect timing actually if anybody wants to join that. It's a six-week intensive. It runs April 16th through May 28th. And would love to have participants. It's online, so it doesn't matter where you're based or if you're traveling, you can still do it. And it's Wednesday evenings from Pacific Time, 5:30 to 7:00. So you're going to head to pleasureproject.us and you can find out more information there. You can also reach me for more information.
Kelle: Awesome. Yeah, we'll put all this in the show notes too.
Jenn: Great.
Nina: Okay, cool. Thank you so much for being here. This is so fun. I think we need a round two. I always say that when our guests come on. I'm like, we just scratched the surface, but at least we have a 101 right now and we can dive deeper next time, but thank you Dr. Jenn, that was awesome.
Kelle: Hey, and just closing out, I think you mentioned a quiz too. Did you want to tell us about that?
Jenn: Sure. Yeah, if people want to understand their attachment style as it relates because I know you guys are big on attachment. We had talked about that a little bit in advance. So I've kind of taken that one step further into how that then relates to their sexual strategies. There is an attachment quiz for sexual strategies on my website. That's also at pleasureproject.us and they can learn about that.
Nina: Who has sexual strategies? Like who even has one right now, right? I mean, so these are sort of your unwitting like unwittingly your sexual approaches. Got it. Sorry. No.
Jenn: So if you know your sexual strategy or you know your sorry, your attachment style tends to be anxious for example, then that's going to manifest in certain sexual strategies. Same thing with avoidance, same thing with secure, etc.
Nina: Cool. We love quizzes like this to just grow your self-awareness. Everyone loves a quiz.
Kelle: I love quizzes. I’m going to go on and take it. We have a client call after this and then I'm going to go take it. Yeah.
Nina: Okay, so we'll put that in the show notes too.
Jenn: Great. Okay, thanks so much.
Nina: Yeah. Thanks again Dr. Jenn.
Jenn: Thanks Dr. Jenn.
Nina: All right, we'll talk soon. Thanks everyone. Thanks for being here.
Kelle: Yeah, thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Kelle: See you in the next episode!
Kelle: Today, we're talking about pleasure.
Nina: Yeah, more specifically, our pleasure and pain when it comes to sex and sexuality. We wanted to have this conversation out in the open because I think what I'm hearing out there isn't really fun or interesting.
Kelle: Yeah. Yeah, that's why we're bringing you a special guest today. I'm so pumped to have Dr. Jenn Kennedy here.
Nina: Yes. I mean, listen, how many women out there aren't having great sex? Or it's just okay and they don't know how to make it better or what that would even look like?
Kelle: And so many aren't having sex at all, right? Like, it's another to-do, checked off the list.
Nina: Totally. There's no use or urgency to create more passion in your life, right?
Kelle: Tapping into your femininity in a sexual way may feel like so far out and so foreign.
Nina: So let's get into this. Let's have a unique discussion with Dr. Jenn about sex and women's pleasure, specifically for our ambitious high-achieving listeners, right? Because a woman who understands her pleasure and potential in this area, a woman who understands how to turn her desire on and off, and who can confidently express what she wants, that woman is freaking unstoppable.
Kelle: Yeah, we want to live in a world where more women are more like that. When you can step into more pleasure, when it becomes a priority, it unlocks more creativity and confidence and abundance and satisfaction and focus in your life. And honestly, a more awe inspiring sense of empowerment.
Nina: Oh my gosh, let's get going. Can't wait here. This is Ambitious-Ish.
Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Kelle: Hey, I'm Kelle.
Nina: And I'm Nina. Okay, Dr. Jenn, let's get rolling here. Thank you for being on Ambitious-Ish.
Jenn: Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Nina: Yeah. So, before we dive in, for the busy women we have who are listening now, who've taken the time to be here, what might change for this person if they take what you say today? What would they learn from you and how would it change their life?
Jenn: Well, I feel like it rounds out their life. Right? It's like they're charging toward a lot, I'm guessing. They are very driven, they are very successful. But I want them to also be well rounded. I want them to also feel some of the rewards of their big ambitious, successful life. And this is the pleasure part. This is the rewards and this is the joyous part. So this is stopping to sort of enjoy kind of all of it. So, yeah.
Kelle: Cool.
Nina: Yeah, totally landing here. Why don't you, well, why don't I introduce you just a little bit and then we can sort of round this out too. So Dr. Jenn, you earned a Master's in clinical psychology, a PhD in clinical sexology. You're a board certified sex therapist. You've been working with individuals and couples in the area of sexual satisfaction, dysfunction, and interpersonal communication for years, right? And you offer small group programs as well as one-on-one intensive coaching programs, right?
Jenn: Yep. That's right.
Nina: Yeah. Tell us what else is on your plate.
Jenn: I know that's a lot. Well, it's all, you know, one thing has led to the next. And so as I've been sitting with clients, I find kind of what's the next thing they need. And so the intensives have been sort of an outgrowth because I find that sometimes the one-on-one model doesn't work. Also, I'm only one person. And so as I, my schedule has filled up, I find that I can only do so many one-on-one appointments. And so the group model has grown out of that.
And also the group model is a different opportunity for people to learn from one another because the group model gives you a chance to sort of hear echoes of what you've been feeling inside, but you know, you can't always hear that from your therapist because the therapist can't share in the same way. And so when you hear it from other people that are experiencing similar things, the learning is exponentially faster. So it's actually kind of a cool way for me to kind of help multiple people at the same time and for them to help one another. So that's sort of an outgrowth.
The intensives also expedite learning. So that's been cool. Simultaneously, I've also realized that some people just don't want to do the group model because they're sheepish about sharing or they just can't fit into that time frame or the price point is too expensive. So now I'm doing an asynchronous group, meaning I've recorded it. So that will be coming out in probably another month. And so people can just buy it and do it at their own self-paced time. So that's next. Yeah.
Nina: I love how you say just in some of your materials that like sex shouldn't feel like a mystery, a hassle or a messy complicated thing you avoid, right?
Jenn: Yes. Right. Those are the checkpoints of what women tend to reflect back as like why they don't have sex.
Kelle: I know when Nina and I were talking about bringing you on, I was like, okay, who cares about sex? Like, I feel like kind of like what we talked about is kind of one of those things you have to check off the list. And we have clients that are like have this amazing sex life and they talk about it in the context of our coaching. And I'm just like, huh, I wonder what that…
Jenn: What’s that like?
Nina: What is that like? Well, part of this, right, is about how women can connect with themselves in a pleasurable way too, like with curiosity and practice and compassion, I'm guessing, first?
Jenn: Some women find it very easy to tune in. Like there's just, there's those women that just very easily do that. They've always done it. They have a very easy sex drive. They go there easily. It just makes sense to them, right? But that's not the majority, I would say. There are some women that just can go there, but lots of women can't do that. So that's, you know, good for them. But there's lots of women that they can't do that.
Nina: Yeah, this kind of brings in some of those like assumptions, right? And like there's a lot of them out there that we should have spontaneous desire, right? And then I know you think I think you call it, Jenn, subsequent arousal in the body, right? That this is all just should all just be happening magically for women, right? Easily.
Jenn: Well, yeah, there's the responsive desire versus like the, yeah, the spontaneous. So that the idea that it's more - and I actually think most desire is responsive, even if it's not so conscious, that even if it's not, you're not aware of what the stimuli was, that there's something that you're responding to. It might be yourself, it might be something that happened earlier, you know, you don't know, it's not so obvious.
It's not like you're just like, you said something to me and I'm responding. It might have been something that happened earlier like in a movie that you're responding to. But I think most of it is is responsive. I don't think most of the time we're just organically like, oh, turned on.
Kelle: That just makes me think about like, what do you think about scheduled sex? Like and scheduled intimacy and like just like doing it even when you don't really feel like it, right?
Jenn: Well, okay, scheduled sex for a busy person, I think is a great idea, actually. Because I don't know about you, but I work great on schedules. I love schedules. I make lists of everything. I am such a type A++. And if I know that something is on my schedule, then I start not do I just do it, but I also orient my brain. It's a blueprint of how I start to line up my day, right?
So it matters in terms of when I start packaging one thing up and move towards the next task. You know, I start preparing. I start thinking about if I know that I have date night, for example, it affects how much I eat at lunch. It affects what I wear that day. It affects how much sleep I get. It affects what meetings I put before it. Like it's a whole scheduling thing that I prepare in lots of ways so that I am psychologically ready for that encounter so that I can be more present. Right?
But if it just pops up and says, hey, I'm like, uh. Like I wasn't ready for that. I'm - I’m no. I don't have good underwear on. No. Hang on. I'm not gonna do that. Hang on. I don't like I don't like surprises. I don't. I'm a scheduler. I'm a planner. So some people are different and they're just like, yeah, let's go. But my wiring is not that way. And so I appreciate a good schedule.
And so that's different than have it when you don't want to. But I do think the value of scheduling and some anticipation for certain personality types is quite helpful. Now, the other thing is getting your mind on board because I think often times, if you just ask a woman especially, do you want to have sex in this moment? The answer is going to be no.
But if there's some ambivalence, and then there's some like sort of warm up, and some like let it be in the no or maybe sort of category for a while. And then there's some back and forth in a positive way, it tends to move towards. I mean, typically it takes, I think statistically there's been like studies that show about 14 to 17 minutes of foreplay before a woman moves towards readiness. So, you know, it takes some warm up. You need some active foreplay before she's going to move towards physiological readiness and enough stimulation.
Nina: So that's interesting, ladies, right listeners?
Jenn: Don't just think you should be out of the gates ready to go.
Kelle: I have a friend that she was telling me that her husband like will start rubbing her back and she's just like, oh God, okay.
Nina: That’s his cue.
Kelle: I guess, I guess, I guess this is what we're doing now.
Jenn: Ding ding ding ding.
Kelle: This is where we're going.
Nina: Let me get myself psyched up here. But just to back up for a sex - just to back up for a sec, Jenn, what are like the main reasons women come to you? What are the main reasons why someone comes to you?
Jenn: It varies. So there I mean the general categories are dysfunction and dissatisfaction.
Nina: And when you say dysfunction, can you explain?
Jenn: So dysfunction would be it's not working right for how I want it to. So that could be dryness, that could be low desire is sort of the clinical term. Low desire meaning I just don't want it or I want to want it, but I don't. It could be pain with penetration. It could be involuntary spasming. It could be I have so much fear or avoidance around sex. It could be a disgust response related to any sort of touch.
It could be after, you know, if there's been low-level trauma or high-level trauma, it could be a lot of fear, you know, related to any sort of physical intimacy. So sometimes it's, you know, I do EMDR and some of those types of somatic protocols to help desensitization and trauma processing. So, yeah, it comes in through different avenues.
Yeah, of like it's the sex and and I see a lot of couples too. So sometimes it's the couple coming in saying, we've never had a good sex life or our sex life went off a cliff after kids. Oh my gosh, that happens a lot and we just never repaired it.
You know, a lot of times these couples are 50 or 60. They're not little kids. They're they've been living with a bad sex life for 10 or 15 years. And they're now usually empty nesters and they're like looking at each other thinking, do we want to get this train back on the tracks? Or are we going to go our own ways now? You know? So it's interesting sort of, I've got a couple right now who are 75 and 80. Like one's 75 and one's 80 and they're coming in because the man's starting to experience erectile dysfunction. And I'm like…
Nina: Good on him.
Jenn: Just now? Good job. I was like, wow, that’s amazing.
Kelle: All right.
Jenn: And I love that you're prioritizing this.
Nina: But question there though, how uncommon or common is erectile dysfunction?
Jenn: So common.
Nina: So common, right? I mean…
Jenn: So common. And it becomes more and more common by the decades. So men in their 50s it starts, but 60s, 70s, 80s, yes, it's going to definitely be there. So I see men and women and I see lots of couples. I mean, my programs really focus on women because men, I'll tell you, men get very weird and sheepish about coming together with one another in groups and talking about their dysfunction. I wish they weren't, but they'll come into couples therapy, but they won't do groups. I haven't gotten them to do it so far anyway. But women will.
Women are very cooperative and will come in and talk about it and get a lot of benefit from it. So I've been able to do the groups with them and they've seen a lot of progress in it. But the men will not. So that's why that programming is geared towards women. But the men will come into therapy and talk about it with, you know, with their partners because they do want the help and they'll be very vulnerable in that context. I hear a lot of the frustration and vulnerability. I do see it from the men.
Nina: So again, just going back to sort of misconceptions or assumptions that are made out there that maybe you can help us deconstruct. You know, one being what I mentioned earlier that, you know, women aren't we need this like seven to 14 minute kind of like warm up, right? We're not necessarily geared towards spontaneous desire or arousal, right? Like in the moment. Are there other sort of assumptions or misconceptions that are notable that we can kind of look at?
Jenn: Well, you know what's interesting, just to kind of counter that point that I made, and I always find this funny is that with partnered sex, it takes say an average of about 15 or 16 minutes. With solo sex, it takes like two minutes, right? Have you noticed that?
Nina: Yeah.
Jenn: Right? I can I mean, I mean, I can orgasm in like two minutes with myself, but it takes forever with the partner.
Kelle: Yeah, it's so much more efficient, right?
Jenn: Romancing yourself. You know, you just know right how to get to it. Yeah, what other assumptions? I always find it interesting when, you know, women don't haven't ever masturbated or, you know, I find that sometimes that there's a correlative in my practice with religiosity. You know, if people have been raised in a faith based environment, the carry over of that, even if they're not still steeped in that faith, that there's still some of those pieces that tend to go with that.
And a lot of times there's hesitancy to have self touch. There's a lot of shyness, men and women to feel like that is wrong or that feels dirty or, you know, and they don't know their own body. And if you don't know your own body, it's going to be harder to have pleasurable experiences with anybody else because you don't know the road map. You don't know how to tell your partner how to touch you. Good luck.
Kelle: Oh, so interesting. Nina, this is like when our clients come to us and they have a money story, right? Or they have a food story or a body story, right? And we help them uncover like, okay, what in your past, what kind of beliefs and stories and rules have you made up about that part of your life that's making you act in this way and think in all that way?
Jenn: Yes, like they’re being backlit.
Kelle: Yes. So I see like for you, it's like, oh, what is your sex story? What have you like learned and been taught about sex and intimacy and all of that.
Jenn: Well, and also within a faith-based construct, often times it's basically been don't do it. Don't want it, don't touch it, don't do anything related to it until you're married. And then once you're married, go for it. Well, you can't just like make that shift.
And so I see all these newly married couples and they're like, we thought it was going to be the glory days once we got married and it's not because they don't have any of those relational skills. Again, they don't have relationship to self. They don't know how to engage in this way that feels moderate and they haven't done the adolescent skill building along the way. And so their sex life is just so unbalanced and sort of, it is kind of adolescent, it looks adolescent even though they're adults and it's really tricky and there's just so much shame. Yeah, shame is often times what is derailing a good sex life. Shame and anxiety.
Nina: Shame and anxiety. I imagine that gets in the way when we want to ask for pleasure or when we have desire too. I mean, that's just a block.
Jenn: Yeah, it's like, what do I deserve?
Nina: That's what it comes down to, right? Like, what do I deserve? And like, how do I even ask for that? Am I worthy of that?
Jenn: And as a logical question, do I deserve it sounds so like, well, of course I do. But really, do I deserve to ask for you to attend to my sexual needs? It kind of feels big, you know? Women are inherently like kind of pleasers and deferential in our culture. And so for you to prioritize your own needs equally to your partners, probably doesn't happen.
Kelle: I'm so glad you said that, Dr. Jenn, because what our people, like our community, not has issues with, but just like they're so used to being like fiercely independent. And to ask for their needs, ask for what they want is really difficult for them because they're like, um, he should just know, like they should just know what I want. Right? They should know what I like by now. What do what do you think about that?
Jenn: The mind reading thing doesn't really work in sex because we're not all the same. You probably don't necessarily want in bed what I want in bed. So it's not like, you know, one size fits all. It's like you're unique and so you do need to give that road map to your partner. And I wouldn't even say I like the same things I liked when I was 20.
Nina: Where were we the other day, Kel? We were having coffee with our friend. Do you remember this? And she's like, blow jobs. Who does blow jobs anymore? Didn't that end in our 30s? And I just started laughing. I was like…
Kelle: We were on the floor in this coffee shop. Yeah.
Nina: Oh my god, it was so funny.
Jenn: That’s so 2000.
Nina: I just started laughing. Yeah, so everyone's very different there. But where do you have someone kind of begin when it comes to asking for their needs? This is very much our community, you know, when they want to explore more pleasure and of course, feel more connected to their partner. I mean, this is a huge part of enjoying your ambition, right? Is feeling connected with your family and partner. You know, and loving that part of your life. So where does someone like this is one of the most pleasurable needs we can fulfill for ourselves. Like so where does someone start there?
Jenn: Yeah. Well, I kind of see the bedroom as like a microcosm to the larger life. So I definitely would say if people are struggling to do it in the bedroom, maybe start in the larger picture of the day to day. So how do you negotiate needs outside of the bedroom with your partner?
You know, if that muscle needs to be flexed, do it there first. You know, do it in the kitchen. Do it in the everyday. Can you have some of those conversations on maybe more neutral topics rather than doing something that's as tender as body based or erotic based? Can you do that and see how that goes?
Because I feel like if you feel like your needs are getting met or if you feel like you can have those kinds of negotiations successfully and your partner is receptive and respectful, then you've already kind of had that experience and then you can do it in this other way and it's more likely to go well because you've had that experience and you've got some language, some foundational knowledge of that person being a reasonable…
Nina: Yeah, there's like evidence for your brain, right?
Jenn: Yeah, that they will meet you there. The other thing you can do is actually have a conversation about eroticism, not in the bedroom, which also feels a little bit strange, but it's kind of sexy to do that. Like if you're just having your morning coffee, you know, or you're on a date and you're saying to your partner, can we talk about what I really like in bed?
Then it's more theoretical and you're not in the moment of saying, here's what I want you to do to me right now, right? It's like instead then you're sort of like it's you're building anticipation, but you're also kind of giving a roadmap and you can sort of see and have a discussion about it, but without it being on the line right then and there. That's another way to do it and they can sort of respond and they can marinate on it and they can ask questions. That's another way to sort of neutralize it a little bit and give some space to like let them kind of like digest it and come back and like yeah.
Nina: Sure. We actually suggest to clients to have like financial conversations outside of the house too or like, you know, outside of the kitchen table. Like go out, have a slice of pizza and a glass of wine with your partner. You know what I mean? Like do it somewhere else because at home there's just energy, right?
Jenn: Yeah. Sometimes in the moment, right when you drop it, if you're then expected to put the skill into practice right away, it can kind of feel like a lot. So they might need to go do some research. They might need to like think about it logistically. Who knows, you know? But I also feel like either of those have the skill building outside or have the discussion about sex, you know, in a neutral, then try to put it into practice. I don't know. I think either of those can feel a little lower pressure.
Kelle: I'm like raising my hand because I'm like a light bulb just went off and I'm like, oh, these are actual skills we can develop. That's amazing. That's awesome. Good to know. Tell us more. Tell us more about the skill development because that's like so compelling to me.
Jenn: Well, people come in all the time. I I swear, the number one thing when people call into a therapy office, couples anyway, and you know, what do you want to work on? Like communication. You know, and it's like communication. Okay, well that is so vague. What do you mean? Like do you not speak the same language?
But sex and relationships are a language and there is all this like missed discussion, missed translation of what do you actually mean? What are you trying to tell me? And yeah, I feel like sometimes it is about translating what do you need from me? What are you trying to tell me? There's implicit and explicit, right? There's what you're saying, and then there's what you actually mean.
And so sometimes it is skill building. It's trying to figure out for me sitting in the in the sort of interpreter's chair of therapist, how do I help these two people start to be a little more vulnerable, but like actually start to see what they need from one another and witness each other a little bit differently and experience things rather than just rinse and repeat what they've already done a bunch of times. I mean, I ask like what have you guys done in the past just so that I'm kind of aware of what they've tried and then I try to introduce ways to interrupt that and try something different.
Nina: Yeah, I mean when someone says they just want more sex, that's not true. It is true, but it's not the whole story. Do you know what I mean? So it's not just about like giving that person more sex, right? You're right. There's like more understanding and curiosity that needs to happen there. And I can totally see how someone like you might help peel back the layers and so they're understanding each other more. Like what exactly does more mean?
Jenn: That's a great question. A lot of times I feel like in heterosexual couples, the guy will come in wanting more sex. And so it seems like it's a frequency issue, but when I ask about what is the function of sex? Like tell me more about what sex means to you because the wife is sitting there like she's like sort of the guardian of the body and he's like, let me in. And she's like, no.
And it's like, okay, what is this about for you? Help me understand what does sex actually mean for you? That changes the frame a little bit and that is a helpful conversation because typically, he doesn't actually just want to get off because he can do that by himself, right? There's something else that's actually that he's hungering for.
He's often times wanting something more like connection, he's wanting, he's wanting touch, but he's often wanting like attention or validation or he wants to feel relevant or desired or something else is going on. And that can be achieved without necessarily penetrative sex. There's something else. I mean, if it's that insatiable, then something else is going on. Right?
Does he need attention from peers? Does he need attention from self? Does he need the attention in another way? Or does he need more quality attention from her that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be met as sexual touch? Because I find that if if he can get more quality attention then it doesn't necessarily always have to be sex.
Kelle: Mhm. Mhm. And you said like penetrative, right? And it's like, oh, there's so much more to sex than penetration. But that's kind of what we think of when we think of like talking about sex.
Nina: So that's a great call. Actually, when we talked to you a couple weeks ago, we were like, wait, we need to define sex. What is sex? Right? And with your partner, too.
Jenn: Mhm. Well, and that's again, that's a heterosexual construct because we think of sex equals penetration in the heterosexual world, whereas gay sex is lots of things. We find that when they've done studies, same sex attracted women are the most satisfied and they're having all kinds of sex. They define sex as holding, touching, kissing, sometimes penetration, but a lot of times not body to body contact, all kinds of things.
And they're having the most orgasms, they're having the most like longest love making sessions because they can't as easily penetrate because they don't have organs that do that, right? So they're forced to do something else. So it's kind of interesting. So if you expand, and I have this conversation a lot when erectile dysfunction is coming into the room, what else can we do? Right?
And when men have to sort of rethink, well, first of all, a flaccid penis still works. I mean, it still has sensation, but you have to detach from this huge attachment you have to this organ is suddenly like has to be reframed. And what else can you do? And you don't just ignore it. You know, you can still attend to it. It just looks different. And also, there's lots of other erogenous zones throughout the body that we can attend to that feel really, really nice.
Nina: Jenn, don't you have a graphic of this, the erogenous zones?
Jenn: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. I have a graphic. I can share. You could put it in the in the show notes. Yeah, that's one of the things we talk about in The Pleasure Circle is getting away from just this huge focus on penetrative sex because for the most part, women are like, yeah, great. Okay, that boom, done. That felt good sort of. But a lot of women can't even orgasm that way. So they're not that into it. You know, I mean, it kind of feels good, maybe, but like it's really not that that's not where the gold is. You know?
Nina: Did you hear that everyone?
Jenn: I think a lot more women would want sex if sex was more pleasurable for them. And so if we can attend to the body as a whole more, I think it would go better. You'd want it more because it would feel better.
Kelle: This is all so interesting to me because just saying penis and penetration out loud, like on the airwaves where people are going to hear us like…
Nina: We’ll have to see.
Jenn: Now you're going to have to now you're going to have to move that little slot that says explicit because now we've said the bad words.
Kelle: Well, it's so funny because I go back to - my husband is a doctor. And when I was talking with our kids about this, when they were younger, I would say penis or vagina. And he would be like, why are you saying those words to our kids? I'm like, are you kidding me? Those are like actually the words. It's not like the vajayjay or hoo hoo or like…
Nina: What’s interesting though, out of curiosity Kel, what did he think you would do? Nothing against anyone here, but just curious.
Kelle: Pee pee for penis or like just not saying like the adult word because it just felt like, I don't know, maybe like too adult for him. But those are just going back to those stories that maybe he grew up with. And we had a money episode a few episodes ago, and it's true, like everyone's got their own money story and going back to those stories of like, oh, are we even supposed to talk about this? Are we supposed to say these words out loud? Like this is so awkward, right?
Jenn: I catch myself when I say penis, when I say erection, when I say penetration, when I say any of those words, I'm like, Is this going to be okay? But it's the word. It's the word that is relevant to the moment. And I try to keep everything really clinical and it's the word that is appropriate. I'm not being, you know, salacious, like it's the word.
Nina: My son, my 12 year old just had the talk in school and came home the other night. He had a lot of questions and I was like, well, I don't have a penis, but let's do this. Let's figure, you know, let's just have this conversation. I'll do the best I can. And I think I nailed it. I think I did a good job.
Kelle: Nailed it, Nina.
Jenn: Hopefully it's the first first of several talks, but yes.
Nina: Yeah. I think it's cool when it happens in school because it is just another opportunity. We've definitely made it happen.
Jenn: Good job. You didn't shy away.
Nina: Yeah, no. I mean, I think too.
Jenn: I never had the talk.
Nina: Oh, wow. Isn't that interesting, right?
Jenn: I was like 30 years old before I could figure out what the three holes were. Like I knew there were three, but I did not understand what the third was about. I was like, what?
Kelle: Yeah, so interesting. Okay. I'm wondering, you know, we have a like a lot of the people that we work with, both men and women, because we do work with both. They're in survival and it's like being in burnout or survival. The last thing you want to think about is having sex. I mean, or at least that's what a lot of our clients. They're just like, I don't even have time to like go to the bathroom without someone bothering me. So what do you have to say for those?
Jenn: Yeah. I get that. And I'm not going to talk them out of that. I don't think you have to, but also you're not a robot. You know, this life is what do you want it to be? I mean, yes, productivity matters. Yes, success matters. But also you want to have some life balance. And sex is in a different realm. It's in the pleasure realm. It's in the play realm. It's in the joy, discovery, curiosity realm. And I think that that's a zone that why are you doing all this hard work?
Nina: Totally. We talk about this a lot, you know, when it comes to just what Kelle and I call resilience, right Kel, when we want to - a resilient nervous system is a healthy one. And so we need rest. We need exercise, we need motion, and we also need play. And that's where sex comes in, right? And that's where like humor and fun, capital F, fun, you know, that's this bucket, right? And this is what is so neglected by so many of the women we work with, so many, so many people in general. This isn't unusual.
Jenn: I think there has to be some of that. Otherwise you're going to charge into burnout. If you don't allow at least a sliver of that wellness for balance into the fun, then I think it's not sustainable.
Nina: So what happens, like this is not uncommon. I have so many friends right now who are like, okay, it's been like three weeks. This has never happened before. Is this a red flag? Are we going over a cliff? Like what's happening? There's the drift if you will, taking place in the relationship. And so is this a problem? And what might you recommend or suggest in a repair here?
Jenn: Meaning it's been three weeks since they've had sex?
Nina: Mhm. Which is unusual for them. So that's just this this particular situation. That's unusual for them. Not everyone.
Jenn: Yeah, I guess think about, you know, it's I don't like to have it be so qualitative necessarily like, you know, looking at the calendar and exactly keeping track. Some people in relationships do that. But more looking at what's going on for them? How connected do they feel to self? How connected do they feel to each other? It's almost like they're like a little submarine. They're just like charging around. It's like pop your little, you know, top up, look around, go look over a partner and go, hey, how are you? What's going on over there?
Nina: Yeah, or like I'm noticing this and this isn't a problem, but I'm noticing and yeah.
Jenn: Because sex is just one component. How connected do you feel to them? It's not separate. It's part of the bigger picture. And so go sit next to that person and gaze into their eyes and just sort of spend a couple minutes. You know, I get it when you're a busy executive, you don't have time to be doing all this like mushy gushy stuff.
But can you do 10 minutes of quality time? Can you do a real focused check in with somebody and say, how are you really? And just that might be all you've got. But can you do that? I'd say, you know, the Gottmans would say, can you do a two-minute makeout session with your partner? Maybe that's all you got.
Nina: And even the Gottmans will have you like kind of just gaze into each other's eyes with a two minute timer.
Jenn: Yeah, just something like that.
Kelle: I'm glad you just said that about gazing into each other's eyes because I do this with my dog all the time. I'll just like grab her face and tell her how much I love her and like look her in the eyes. And the other day I was like, I should actually do this with my family members too that are not furry, right?
Nina: Isn't that interesting?
Kelle: Yeah. Just the eye contact is so intimate.
Jenn: And the oxytocin release with pets is so lovely, right? Just like that sweetness. And we can get that with humans too, right? And I just want to - I want to acknowledge being busy is really hard. It's hard to downshift. It's hard to prioritize. You're just like, you've got all these people coming at you. You've got all these projects and priorities.
But taking a moment, hitting pause, taking a walk around the block, even sending a sweet text to someone that you care about, right? And just sending a flirty text, right? Sending that text also does something for you. Right? It does something to the receiver, but it does something to the sender too. Right? It's a little zinger and it it leaves you with something too.
Kelle: And I love that you just said that. Totally. Well, we say that the quality of our relationships depends on or is determined by the quality of our thoughts about the other person. So if we're thinking good thoughts, like that makes us feel good. It doesn't even have anything to do with them. So you're right, sending the text or like sending a hot email to them, like feels so good to you and also like feels good to them. It's a win win. I love it.
Jenn: Yeah. And it’s, you know, it is a decision to make them a priority and it's maintaining a relationship. And we do it all the time. We maintain business relationships, we, you know, you keep a lot of plates spinning. And also, like I just took a walk this morning and on that walk I thought, do I want to listen to an audio book? Do I want to call a family member? Do I want to just be in nature? You know?
Like I'm trying to decide how productive do I want to be and how present do I want to be? You know, I grabbed actually a sprig of rosemary as I passed a bush and I like smelled it as I listened to an audiobook. You know, and I thought, I'm not going to call anybody. I'm just going to listen, listen to my book and I'm going to smell and I'm going to do that.
Nina: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's so interesting when we dive into a conversation like this is that, you know, Kelle and I talk a lot about masculine and feminine energy and so many of our clients come to coaching just very unbalanced in that energy. You know, they're very - they lean heavily into their masculine energy and it's kind of there are two different sort of levels of masculine. There's empowered and disempowered and it's a whole another episode. We'll put it in the show notes.
But tapping into your feminine energy in a sexual way is just where we want to go kind of here today, right? It's of course finding balance with masculine and feminine, but then it's also leaning into that feminine energy in like a sexual way.
Kelle: Yes. Yeah. What do you see with that, Dr. Jenn?
Jenn: Yeah, I think that we have both masculine and feminine energy in all of us. And it's the take charge as well as the relinquish. I recently actually was at a retreat in Costa Rica with Esther Perel and she had us do this wonderful activity of Kink sort of light. And she brought in this gal that that did some rope play. We we partnered up and it was really interesting to be led and to be both in the dominant and the submissive roles.
And that reminded me sort of of the masculine and feminine that we're talking about here. And to relinquish, to allow. I spend a lot of time. I'm a boss lady. I run a company. I guide a lot of people. I understand that it's hard to then step down and be in a feminine role and to be in a submissive, I'm using that, you know, in the way of allowing vulnerability to come in erotically. And yet, it feels really nice. But to be in a in that role, you have to feel like the person you're relinquishing is very confident and capable and…
Nina:Trustworthy. I'm feeling the T word big time here.
Kelle: Trustworthy and safety. Yeah.
Jenn: Yeah, that they've got it, that they know what they're doing, that they're ready for that role, that they can manage it, that they know me well enough that they’ve, you know, that if the trust fall, they're going to catch you, you know, and it's just really important. And so if there's any faltering in that, then I'm going to run back into my masculine and take over, you know?
So, you know, I think it's a delicate balance and I see this with men too. You know, men want to give up control. How many men have gone to a dominatrix because they, you know, these boss men want to give up control. It's hard to stay in control all the time. People want to let go. And that's normal for all of us, all of us high achievers to want to sometimes also - we get decision fatigue.
Nina: I just want to do it. It's like all or nothing. It's that all or nothing thinking, right? Our clients either all in or all out. And yeah. Totally.
Jenn: I don't even want to decide what's for dinner. Exactly. I don't want to decide anything more.
Nina: And that's when the resentment comes in, right? Because they want you we want them to be able to read our minds and have these high expectations and then everything explodes in our face.
Jenn: I don't know what I want for sex. I don't know what I want for dinner. I don't know what I want to wear. I don't know. Just like help, right? So I think it's really nice in partnership sometimes to just let go and let the other person sort of take the lead, take the ropes, you know?
Kelle: Drop the rope. Drop the rope like Nina always says. Yeah.
Nina: Yeah. Jenn, it's been so cool talking with you. Why don't you just tell us quickly, you have a group opening up?
Jenn: Yeah.
Nina: Go ahead, tell us everything.
Jenn: So the small group intensive that I lead a couple times a year, we have one that is going to be running. It starts April 16th. So it's perfect timing actually if anybody wants to join that. It's a six-week intensive. It runs April 16th through May 28th. And would love to have participants. It's online, so it doesn't matter where you're based or if you're traveling, you can still do it. And it's Wednesday evenings from Pacific Time, 5:30 to 7:00. So you're going to head to pleasureproject.us and you can find out more information there. You can also reach me for more information.
Kelle: Awesome. Yeah, we'll put all this in the show notes too.
Jenn: Great.
Nina: Okay, cool. Thank you so much for being here. This is so fun. I think we need a round two. I always say that when our guests come on. I'm like, we just scratched the surface, but at least we have a 101 right now and we can dive deeper next time, but thank you Dr. Jenn, that was awesome.
Kelle: Hey, and just closing out, I think you mentioned a quiz too. Did you want to tell us about that?
Jenn: Sure. Yeah, if people want to understand their attachment style as it relates because I know you guys are big on attachment. We had talked about that a little bit in advance. So I've kind of taken that one step further into how that then relates to their sexual strategies. There is an attachment quiz for sexual strategies on my website. That's also at pleasureproject.us and they can learn about that.
Nina: Who has sexual strategies? Like who even has one right now, right? I mean, so these are sort of your unwitting like unwittingly your sexual approaches. Got it. Sorry. No.
Jenn: So if you know your sexual strategy or you know your sorry, your attachment style tends to be anxious for example, then that's going to manifest in certain sexual strategies. Same thing with avoidance, same thing with secure, etc.
Nina: Cool. We love quizzes like this to just grow your self-awareness. Everyone loves a quiz.
Kelle: I love quizzes. I’m going to go on and take it. We have a client call after this and then I'm going to go take it. Yeah.
Nina: Okay, so we'll put that in the show notes too.
Jenn: Great. Okay, thanks so much.
Nina: Yeah. Thanks again Dr. Jenn.
Jenn: Thanks Dr. Jenn.
Nina: All right, we'll talk soon. Thanks everyone. Thanks for being here.
Kelle: Yeah, thanks for listening. See you next time.
—
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Kelle: Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of Ambitious-Ish.
Nina: If you’re ready to align your ambitions with your heart and feel more calm, balanced, and connected, visit https://www.kelleandnina.com/ for more information about how to work with us and make sure you get on our list.
Kelle: See you in the next episode!
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