35. Overcome Your Fear of Judgment: Kelle’s Real-Life Story
Do you ever find yourself worrying too much about what other people think of you? Both of us do it, but we wish we didn’t. It's a natural human tendency, but living in this place risks holding even the most ambitious, high-functioning women from living authentically and pursuing their dreams.
In this deeply personal episode, we take you behind the scenes. There’s a lot happening right now, but this is a great opportunity to dive deep into what's going on in our personal lives, working through our own recent experiences of trying to not care what other people think. That’s right, it’s time to show you how we put our own tools and strategies into practice.
Tune in this week as Kelle opens up about her recent experiences with cancer treatment and how it's forced her to confront her own fears about being judged by others. As she undergoes chemotherapy, Kelle has had to face insecurities about her changing appearance, especially her hair loss. Kelle shares how she's coaching herself through this challenging time by questioning her own thoughts and beliefs to reclaim her self-worth from within.
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What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
Kelle’s story of navigating her cancer treatment journey and the impact it’s had on her self-image.
How to question your own thoughts and beliefs to reclaim your self-worth.
Strategies for letting people be wrong about you and making your own opinion matter most.
Why discernment is key when you're in survival mode.
How to practice kind inner self-talk (KIST) when you need support.
The specific thoughts Kelle is using to overcome her fear of what others think about her appearance during her cancer treatment.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Why I Cut Off All My Hair – article by Elizabeth Gilbert
Eat, Pray, Love by Elizabeth Gilbert
Full Episode Transcript:
Nina: Okay, recently I have personally thought, I wish I didn’t care so much what other people thought of me.
Kelle: Yeah, same. That’s why today we’re diving deep into what’s going on in our personal lives, working from our own recent experiences on not caring what other people think. I’m already feeling some feels around this, Nina, how about you?
Nina: Totally.
Kelle: Because there’s real life happening behind the scenes here with both of us, right, Nina?
Nina: Yes. We’re going to let you in on the latest and put our own tools and strategies into practice. This is going to be a really personal one. Let’s get going. This is Ambitious-Ish. Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Kelle: Hey, I’m Kelle.
Nina: And I’m Nina. Alright, last week we talked all about how to stop caring about what people think. That was episode 34, Rewire your Brain to Stop Worrying What Others Think.
Kelle: Yes. And we talked about why we care so much, what it’s costing us. And we gave the listeners a framework of how to stop caring, or at least not care quite so much.
Nina: I don’t know that we fully stop caring because we humans are so wired to care, it’s in our operating system, it’s baked in.
Kelle: Yeah, exactly. And this is where I’m going to dive in and get personal. I’ve been doing some deep work as Nina knows. I’ve been in treatment for cancer, including chemotherapy and immunotherapy.
Nina: Yeah, Kel, why don’t you give us a little bit of background there for listeners who don’t know?
Kelle: Yeah, okay. I was diagnosed with bile duct cancer in April and had surgery in May and started chemotherapy and immunotherapy infusions in July. So, July, it goes through the end of the year and then we kind of reevaluate what’s going on from there. And we covered a lot of how I discovered I had cancer and all that in episode 20, if you want to check that out.
Nina: Definitely go back. So how is treatment? How are you doing right now?
Kelle: Yeah, treatment has been going really well. And geez, I am on round six of eight. So, I have three rounds left, so six infusions total left. I mean it’s going, I don’t know if you can say good because chemotherapy is not fun. I was calling it chemo and I really want to call it chemotherapy because it reminds me that it’s actually therapeutic because, I mean, it is so toxic to the system and toxic to other people. And so just reminding myself that it’s actually therapy has been actually really helpful for me.
Nina: No, that’s awesome. And is there a rhythm that you get in with the treatment, with therapy?
Kelle: Yeah, for sure. There is a rhythm and I kind of found a rhythm with the first part of chemotherapy. The first three rounds were, I don’t want to say easy, but I wasn’t seeing a lot of the side effects yet. Yeah, of course I had fatigue, but I knew which days I was going to have fatigue. They told me it was day three to day five that I was going to be really kind of tired and down. So, I expected that and it was really nice to know that was happening. And now it’s shifted a bit, but let’s talk about some of the symptoms that I’m having first and then I can talk about an update.
Nina: Cool. Let’s do it.
Kelle: Okay. So, this is how to stop caring about what people think of you really came into play for me because one of the side effects of the medicines I’m being given is hair loss. And my hair, it hasn’t completely fallen out, but it’s been thinning since I started treatment in January, crazy amounts of hair come out in my brush after I shower. There’s always hair on my sweaters and sweatshirts, and it’s kind of everywhere except staying on my head. And at first I didn’t really stress about it because I wasn’t supposed to lose my hair. Both my surgeon and my oncologist said it would thin but not fall out, but as the treatment has progressed, it’s definitely coming out.
Nina: Oh, Kel, and it’s so interesting because I don’t think I am as aware of it as you are. So, it’s so interesting what your brain is coding and what it’s noticing. And a couple weeks ago we went to the hairdresser together, right?
Kelle: Yeah, that was probably a month ago now. We went to the hairdresser because I kept seeing my hair falling out and I was like, “Alright, maybe I’m just going to buzz it.” Because. I was having so much anxiety over it falling out, so we went to the hairdresser with a few friends, including Nina and my mom and my hairdresser actually talked me out of it. She said there is enough coverage at this point. And ever since my hair has started falling out, I’ve been absolutely fixated on hair, completely obsessed about it, looking at other people’s fabulous thick hair and looking at mine falling out. And just thinking people are looking at me because I don’t have very much hair anymore. I’m so focused on it and fixated on it and obsessed about it, or I have been. I’m not really anymore. But yeah, that’s where my brain was going and what I was focusing on, which is just so much of caring what other people think.
Nina: Yeah. And so, didn’t you at some point try some wigs on?
Kelle: Yes, I did. I was in Newport Beach with my family on a little mini vacation. And I had been referred to this wig company by a friend and they happen to be in Newport Beach. And so, I decided to make an appointment while I was there. And it was so interesting, Nina, all they had were these really thick blonde cascading gorgeous wigs. And I was just like, “What is happening?” I’ve never had hair like that. So, to all of a sudden have this really gorgeous thick hair, I was just like, “Oh my God, this feels so costumey to me, this feels so not me.” And I even took some pictures of it because I was just like, “This is not me at all.”
Nina: Gosh, that’s just such a moment to behold. You’re trying wigs on, looking at yourself in the mirror because you’ve cancer. That’s a moment.
Kelle: Yeah. And so, I look at people’s hair like your gorgeous hair and I’m just like, “Man, they’re so lucky.”
Nina: Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. I’ve never looked at my hair that way. It’s just something I need to get out of the way. Something I need to manage.
Kelle: Yeah, right. And so, this worrying about what people think of you, it’s really come into my vernacular because I have been so worried about what people thought of me about my hair. And I’m so worried about if I’m going to have to buzz it or if I’m not going to have any and what’s going to happen with that.
Nina: Yeah, and worrying is so interesting. My coach says worrying is just our brains pretending a negative outcome, just pretending negative stories, pretending negative situations. It’s all pretend worrying. But, Kel, just recently you were telling me about a story about someone who saw a picture of us on Instagram and what did she say to you?
Kelle: Yeah, she said and she knows I have cancer, and she saw the picture and called me and was like, “Hey, I saw that picture that you posted online on Instagram, and it looks like there’s something wrong with you.” And I started laughing and I was like, “Well, there is something wrong with me, I have cancer.” And she was kind of saying in a way, “Maybe you should take the picture down. It’s not a very good picture of you. It’s not a very flattering picture of you.”
Nina: No, and if I can jump in, it was a picture of both of us, right?
Kelle: Yes.
Nina: So, neither one of us looked good, if we’re being real, but anyway.
Kelle: And that just tells me where her brain is and where her thoughts and beliefs are about beauty standards and what we should be putting online and what we should show people. And only showing the best light on Instagram type of thing.
Nina: Yeah. I’m just laughing because I know the picture. And in retrospect, Kelle and I decided to delete the picture because we don’t like it of either one of us anyway, but it’s never mattered. We’re not really preoccupied with that. But anyway, so, tell us a little bit more about the worrying about what other people think about your hair loss, for example, what it’s costing you?
Kelle: Yeah. What it has cost me is a lot of time spent worrying, obsessing, being consumed with what other people are thinking about me. It costs me money to go to the beauty store. There’s a store here in town that I went to and had some makeup done, which was interesting because my eyelashes are kind of falling out too. And I don’t have very much eyebrow. So, I can’t even lean on makeup at this point. I’m just embracing it and being okay, but it has cost me time, energy, money, presence in my life, feeling insecure and stress. I’ve been stressed about it. And so, physical health comes into play, emotional health comes into play. So, all of that, and it’s all about hair. It’s so interesting.
Nina: Okay, so Kel, we know you’ve really done a lot of your own thought work around this. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you’ve discovered or what you found in that thought work?
Kelle: Yeah. We have clients do what’s called a thought release when they are ruminating on something or fixated on something. And really, it’s just, you can answer a question or you can just write a stream of consciousness. So, I answered this question that I love, it’s, what am I worried about? So, I’m just going to tell you all what the thoughts are that came out when I asked myself what I’m worried about. So, this was probably a month ago now. Okay, I’m worried other people will have thoughts about me. People will know what’s going on with me. They’ll judge me. They’ll know I have cancer. They’ll think I look old. They’ll wonder if I’m okay. They’ll think I’m ugly. They’ll feel sorry for me. I’m going to look awful for a really long time until my hair grows back out. I’ll have less value as a person. My husband won’t be attracted to me. I’ll embarrass my kids. People will feel awkward around me. My son won’t want me to tuck him in or drop him off at school. He actually said that a while ago. People won’t hire us to be their coaches. I’ll look sick or fragile or old. I won’t be able to hide my sickness. So those are the thoughts that came out of that question, what am I worried about? And it’s really interesting because it’s watching my brain unmanaged and this is what Nina and I do. We look for patterns. We look for unhelpful and un-useful thoughts and these were all of my unintentional thoughts.
Nina: And if I can, we look for themes, we look for tone, we look for, of course, like Kelle said, patterns. And you can see here in this unintentional thinking in Kelle’s kind of default automatic thinking, there’s just a lot of fear and scarcity, and this makes complete sense. It makes complete sense that your brain is coding a lot of what’s going on around you as threats. And you are on default in survival mode. Can we just call it like it is? I mean, you’re in literal survival mode.
Kelle: Yes, so true. And some questions that I asked myself when I was self-coaching this is, do people with hair have more value? Of course, no. Will I be happier once I have more hair again? No, I’ll be pumped when I don’t have cancer. That is what I’m focused on right now. How do I want to feel, not how do I look? So, I want to feel energized and clear and confident and strong and healthy and bold and sunny.
Nina: Yeah, I think too, part of this is the way we’re socialized as women. We can use the P word, patriarchy, but society itself has taught us to be self-sacrificing and to be accommodating and to source our value and certainty outside of ourselves. We’re taught to question how beautiful we are and how thin we are and how young we are, how enough we are. And we’re taught to look outside of ourselves for all of that and really not source that value on our own from within. So yeah, we’ve got to start poking holes in all of this. Does that make sense?
Kelle: Yeah, for sure. And I have had to remind myself of my fierceness, that fire that I have. And when I forget, I have people around me, my friends and neighbors and husband and family and all the people that are around me and supporting me through this and helping to remind me of that. And the more I peel back the layers on me, the more I get to know me and live in alignment with who I am, my favorite version of me when I’m being purposeful and intentional. I’m more discerning with how I spend my time and my energy. I have a stronger voice for myself. I am listening to what’s really important to me and I’m listening to what I deeply care about. And again, whether it’s how you look with me or it’s what you’re going through personally, whether it’s an illness or cancer or divorce or how you parent or what you wear or how you lead if you’re a business owner or an executive. Or how you treat patients if you’re a doctor, how you live, how you spend money. You’re going to worry about what other people think of you. And people are going to have thoughts about how you should do things, how we should do things. What we should look like and who we should be. And we all have to just remind ourselves that, one of the main concepts that Nina and I work with, it’s kind of a next level concept after the three R’s which we talked about in the last episode, episode 34. It’s really to let people be wrong about you, to let them have their thoughts and opinions and make your opinion matter more than theirs.
Nina: Not to source all of your value from everyone else’s thoughts about you. To come up with your own thoughts about yourself and start to believe those and honor those too. I think one of the most important takeaways from what you’ve just said, what I heard you say was how discerning you’ve become. You have to be right now. You have to choose where you want your brain to be. You have to choose what you want your head space to look and feel like and you have to be discerning or you could just spiral, I’m guessing.
Kelle: Yeah, for sure. I have to really watch my brain and just make sure that I’m thinking useful thoughts. And of course, my brain goes to heaviness and negativity and it’s up to me to bring myself out of that, not for other people to do it for me, but for me to be able to do that for myself and support myself in that way and that’s a big thing that we teach our clients.
Nina: I think this is called kind inner self-talk. That sounds so basic, but it’s actually an acronym that one of our mentors teaches, it’s called KIST. And this is really, really important when you need support and you’re looking outside of yourself for it. You have the opportunity to support yourself first. So, I’m okay, everything’s going to be alright. I’ve got you. You’re just talking to yourself this way, right?
Kelle: Totally. Yeah, and when I remind myself or I am reminded of who I am, I’m like, “Who effing cares?” I am trying to stay alive right now. I’m in, like Nina said, the ultimate survival state, going to doctor’s appointments, getting countless labs, trying to eat enough so I don’t lose more weight and wondering if my cell count will be high enough to get treatment this week. Wondering if they’ll be able to find a vein in my arm or if I’m going to have to get a port which I don’t really want at this point. It’s another surgery. It’s actually two surgeries, one to put it in and one to take it out, so yeah, there’s that. There’s sitting for hours on end for chemotherapy and immunotherapy. There’s researching alternative therapies, specific guided meditations, cranial, sacral. I’ve been getting acupuncture and most recently, hyperbaric chamber therapy, anything that might help me heal. And that’s where I want to spend my time and energy. So much of my life force was spent worrying about my hair, and now I look back at those thoughts and I’m just like, “Oh, my God, my brain was just on one.” So, it’s so interesting, it’s given me so much perspective, that fear that I have of being judged. If people have thoughts about me not having hair or right now it’s my hair looking thin because it is falling out, they really are none of my business, their opinions have nothing to do with me.
Nina: That’s so true. You really do have to suck yourself out and gain perspective and really be aware of your thoughts, be onto yourself to do this work right?
Kelle: Yeah.
Nina: So, let’s do this. Why don’t we just look at the facts right now, go ahead, what are the facts?
Kelle: Yeah. So, the facts are, my hair is thin. It’s slowly falling out. This is temporary. This is a thought that I’ve used for myself. I have seven more weeks of treatment right now. So, I finish chemotherapy as of now, mid-December. So, looking forward to that and just knowing I can do anything for two months.
Nina: Yeah. And when that old part of your brain takes you to that place where you start to worry. Where do you go? Go ahead.
Kelle: I just have empathy and compassion for that part of me, that sweet part of me, that at one point in my life, when I was very young, learned that people are nice to you when you match the cultural standard of what it looks like to be beautiful. So, it’s interesting because I’ve always had this bright blonde hair, but it’s not my blonde hair that makes me beautiful. It’s my smile and my positive energy, the way I fiercely care for my kids and the people in my life, my husband and my friends and my neighbors. It’s how I care deeply about our clients and the work that we do, how I move through the world loving nature and beauty and always wanting to grow and evolve. That’s what I want to be beautiful for.
Nina: You are babes, you’re gorge. I know, it’s so interesting what your brain does, it’s just bullshit.
Kelle: Yeah, so, a big part of this is just us walking you through like how we coach ourselves, because of course, we, Nina and I are human and we coach ourselves and then we have coaches, of course. We have personal coaches and we have a business coach and there’s a lot of coaching going on in our lives.
Nina: Yeah, there is a lot, we absolutely need our brains coached. Kel, I read this article, I thought it’d be cool to mention to listeners about Liz Gilbert on Instagram. I sent it to you.
Kelle: Yeah, I saw that. And I picked out this quote. So, Liz Gilbert, she’s written so many books, Eat, Pray, Love, was the big one. She talked in this article about how she buzzed her hair. She just got tired of her hair, she said, her hair has always been difficult, and she recently buzzed it off. And she said, “That night I had a realization. I can either complain about how unfair and imbalanced the beauty and aging standards are for men versus women, or just claim for myself the entitlement that these men hold. I, too, could just decide to have buzzed hair and a lined face. I, too, could decide to just stop chasing pretty. And instead to look great, unadorned, powerful, comfortable, and un-fussed over.” I know, yeah, it’s awesome.
Nina: Yeah. So, concept wise here, Kel, if we can crystallize a couple of things, a couple of takeaways here, maybe one or two. What do you think?
Kelle: So, like we said, this episode is kind of on the piggyback to episode 34 where we talk about the three R’s and give a bunch of client examples on how to stop caring about what other people think of you. And what I’ve done in here is kind of next level, it’s kind of, we do the thought work. And then we really do the emotional work too. So, it’s feeling the heaviness and being okay with some of the harder times and just knowing that hard times are going to come. Life is 50/50, so we’re going to have hard times and we’re going to have amazing times and we’re going to have a bunch of in between times and so, it’s just noticing all of that. So, life is 50/50 is definitely one of those concepts I’ve used. Like I mentioned, let them be wrong about you. We love reminding ourselves and our clients that it’s okay because people are going to have opinions and thoughts about you no matter what. So, you can just let them have their opinions and thoughts, and you can know what your truth is and how that wisdom and that understanding and that knowing for yourself.
Nina: Yeah, and sometimes you have to build that belief or knowing in yourself. Sometimes it doesn’t happen right away and that’s okay, and we can help you do that. But building belief is an option here too, learning to like yourself more, learning to love yourself more, learning to treat yourself better internally first.
Kelle: Yeah. And then there’s just one more I want to share. If it’s all a guess of what people are thinking, why don’t we choose a better feeling guess? So, we can think that everyone is, in my instance, looking at my thin hair and the dark circles under my eyes and the no eyelashes and just judging me. I can think that or I can walk around and just think, maybe they’re looking at me because they like the shirt I’m wearing or the smile that I have on my face, or the energy that I’m bringing.
Nina: They just like being around you because you’re awesome, yeah. It’s so funny, well, and then just one more sort of takeaway that I love from one of our queens, Brené Brown, Kel. She suggests that you take just a small post-it note and write the names of the people whose opinions you actually care about and keep that close by. Keep an inner circle. Have people that you know you can pick up the phone and call. Connection is everything when you need help, kind of getting your head space cleaned up, cleaning up your thoughts and remembering what’s true and beautiful about you. So just a small post-it note. It doesn’t have to be a long list. This is your inner circle, these are your peeps, so I love that too.
Kelle: All of this for me has really been a masterclass in how to not care about what other people think of you. And that’s why we want to bring this on today, just to let you know that there are so many ways that we can go about this. And if this has spoken to you, just know that there’s so many resources for you.
Nina: Absolutely. Alright, Kel, thanks for sharing that with us today. And thanks for being here, listeners. We’ll see you next time.
Kelle: Yeah, we’ll see you next time. Thank you.
Nina: Hey everyone, if you want more live access to me and Kelle, you have to join our email list.
Kelle: Yes, we’ll come to your email box every Tuesday and Thursday.
Nina: You can ask us questions, get clarity and get coached.
Kelle: We offer monthly free email coaching when you’re on our list and you’re the first to know about trainings, events and other free coaching opportunities.
Nina: Just go to kelleandnina.com. That’s K E L L E and nina.com to sign up.
Kelle: Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of Ambitious-Ish.
Nina: If you’re ready to align your ambitions with your heart and feel more calm, balanced, and connected, visit https://www.kelleandnina.com/ for more information about how to work with us and make sure you get on our list.
Kelle: See you in the next episode!
Kelle: Yeah, same. That’s why today we’re diving deep into what’s going on in our personal lives, working from our own recent experiences on not caring what other people think. I’m already feeling some feels around this, Nina, how about you?
Nina: Totally.
Kelle: Because there’s real life happening behind the scenes here with both of us, right, Nina?
Nina: Yes. We’re going to let you in on the latest and put our own tools and strategies into practice. This is going to be a really personal one. Let’s get going. This is Ambitious-Ish. Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Kelle: Hey, I’m Kelle.
Nina: And I’m Nina. Alright, last week we talked all about how to stop caring about what people think. That was episode 34, Rewire your Brain to Stop Worrying What Others Think.
Kelle: Yes. And we talked about why we care so much, what it’s costing us. And we gave the listeners a framework of how to stop caring, or at least not care quite so much.
Nina: I don’t know that we fully stop caring because we humans are so wired to care, it’s in our operating system, it’s baked in.
Kelle: Yeah, exactly. And this is where I’m going to dive in and get personal. I’ve been doing some deep work as Nina knows. I’ve been in treatment for cancer, including chemotherapy and immunotherapy.
Nina: Yeah, Kel, why don’t you give us a little bit of background there for listeners who don’t know?
Kelle: Yeah, okay. I was diagnosed with bile duct cancer in April and had surgery in May and started chemotherapy and immunotherapy infusions in July. So, July, it goes through the end of the year and then we kind of reevaluate what’s going on from there. And we covered a lot of how I discovered I had cancer and all that in episode 20, if you want to check that out.
Nina: Definitely go back. So how is treatment? How are you doing right now?
Kelle: Yeah, treatment has been going really well. And geez, I am on round six of eight. So, I have three rounds left, so six infusions total left. I mean it’s going, I don’t know if you can say good because chemotherapy is not fun. I was calling it chemo and I really want to call it chemotherapy because it reminds me that it’s actually therapeutic because, I mean, it is so toxic to the system and toxic to other people. And so just reminding myself that it’s actually therapy has been actually really helpful for me.
Nina: No, that’s awesome. And is there a rhythm that you get in with the treatment, with therapy?
Kelle: Yeah, for sure. There is a rhythm and I kind of found a rhythm with the first part of chemotherapy. The first three rounds were, I don’t want to say easy, but I wasn’t seeing a lot of the side effects yet. Yeah, of course I had fatigue, but I knew which days I was going to have fatigue. They told me it was day three to day five that I was going to be really kind of tired and down. So, I expected that and it was really nice to know that was happening. And now it’s shifted a bit, but let’s talk about some of the symptoms that I’m having first and then I can talk about an update.
Nina: Cool. Let’s do it.
Kelle: Okay. So, this is how to stop caring about what people think of you really came into play for me because one of the side effects of the medicines I’m being given is hair loss. And my hair, it hasn’t completely fallen out, but it’s been thinning since I started treatment in January, crazy amounts of hair come out in my brush after I shower. There’s always hair on my sweaters and sweatshirts, and it’s kind of everywhere except staying on my head. And at first I didn’t really stress about it because I wasn’t supposed to lose my hair. Both my surgeon and my oncologist said it would thin but not fall out, but as the treatment has progressed, it’s definitely coming out.
Nina: Oh, Kel, and it’s so interesting because I don’t think I am as aware of it as you are. So, it’s so interesting what your brain is coding and what it’s noticing. And a couple weeks ago we went to the hairdresser together, right?
Kelle: Yeah, that was probably a month ago now. We went to the hairdresser because I kept seeing my hair falling out and I was like, “Alright, maybe I’m just going to buzz it.” Because. I was having so much anxiety over it falling out, so we went to the hairdresser with a few friends, including Nina and my mom and my hairdresser actually talked me out of it. She said there is enough coverage at this point. And ever since my hair has started falling out, I’ve been absolutely fixated on hair, completely obsessed about it, looking at other people’s fabulous thick hair and looking at mine falling out. And just thinking people are looking at me because I don’t have very much hair anymore. I’m so focused on it and fixated on it and obsessed about it, or I have been. I’m not really anymore. But yeah, that’s where my brain was going and what I was focusing on, which is just so much of caring what other people think.
Nina: Yeah. And so, didn’t you at some point try some wigs on?
Kelle: Yes, I did. I was in Newport Beach with my family on a little mini vacation. And I had been referred to this wig company by a friend and they happen to be in Newport Beach. And so, I decided to make an appointment while I was there. And it was so interesting, Nina, all they had were these really thick blonde cascading gorgeous wigs. And I was just like, “What is happening?” I’ve never had hair like that. So, to all of a sudden have this really gorgeous thick hair, I was just like, “Oh my God, this feels so costumey to me, this feels so not me.” And I even took some pictures of it because I was just like, “This is not me at all.”
Nina: Gosh, that’s just such a moment to behold. You’re trying wigs on, looking at yourself in the mirror because you’ve cancer. That’s a moment.
Kelle: Yeah. And so, I look at people’s hair like your gorgeous hair and I’m just like, “Man, they’re so lucky.”
Nina: Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. I’ve never looked at my hair that way. It’s just something I need to get out of the way. Something I need to manage.
Kelle: Yeah, right. And so, this worrying about what people think of you, it’s really come into my vernacular because I have been so worried about what people thought of me about my hair. And I’m so worried about if I’m going to have to buzz it or if I’m not going to have any and what’s going to happen with that.
Nina: Yeah, and worrying is so interesting. My coach says worrying is just our brains pretending a negative outcome, just pretending negative stories, pretending negative situations. It’s all pretend worrying. But, Kel, just recently you were telling me about a story about someone who saw a picture of us on Instagram and what did she say to you?
Kelle: Yeah, she said and she knows I have cancer, and she saw the picture and called me and was like, “Hey, I saw that picture that you posted online on Instagram, and it looks like there’s something wrong with you.” And I started laughing and I was like, “Well, there is something wrong with me, I have cancer.” And she was kind of saying in a way, “Maybe you should take the picture down. It’s not a very good picture of you. It’s not a very flattering picture of you.”
Nina: No, and if I can jump in, it was a picture of both of us, right?
Kelle: Yes.
Nina: So, neither one of us looked good, if we’re being real, but anyway.
Kelle: And that just tells me where her brain is and where her thoughts and beliefs are about beauty standards and what we should be putting online and what we should show people. And only showing the best light on Instagram type of thing.
Nina: Yeah. I’m just laughing because I know the picture. And in retrospect, Kelle and I decided to delete the picture because we don’t like it of either one of us anyway, but it’s never mattered. We’re not really preoccupied with that. But anyway, so, tell us a little bit more about the worrying about what other people think about your hair loss, for example, what it’s costing you?
Kelle: Yeah. What it has cost me is a lot of time spent worrying, obsessing, being consumed with what other people are thinking about me. It costs me money to go to the beauty store. There’s a store here in town that I went to and had some makeup done, which was interesting because my eyelashes are kind of falling out too. And I don’t have very much eyebrow. So, I can’t even lean on makeup at this point. I’m just embracing it and being okay, but it has cost me time, energy, money, presence in my life, feeling insecure and stress. I’ve been stressed about it. And so, physical health comes into play, emotional health comes into play. So, all of that, and it’s all about hair. It’s so interesting.
Nina: Okay, so Kel, we know you’ve really done a lot of your own thought work around this. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you’ve discovered or what you found in that thought work?
Kelle: Yeah. We have clients do what’s called a thought release when they are ruminating on something or fixated on something. And really, it’s just, you can answer a question or you can just write a stream of consciousness. So, I answered this question that I love, it’s, what am I worried about? So, I’m just going to tell you all what the thoughts are that came out when I asked myself what I’m worried about. So, this was probably a month ago now. Okay, I’m worried other people will have thoughts about me. People will know what’s going on with me. They’ll judge me. They’ll know I have cancer. They’ll think I look old. They’ll wonder if I’m okay. They’ll think I’m ugly. They’ll feel sorry for me. I’m going to look awful for a really long time until my hair grows back out. I’ll have less value as a person. My husband won’t be attracted to me. I’ll embarrass my kids. People will feel awkward around me. My son won’t want me to tuck him in or drop him off at school. He actually said that a while ago. People won’t hire us to be their coaches. I’ll look sick or fragile or old. I won’t be able to hide my sickness. So those are the thoughts that came out of that question, what am I worried about? And it’s really interesting because it’s watching my brain unmanaged and this is what Nina and I do. We look for patterns. We look for unhelpful and un-useful thoughts and these were all of my unintentional thoughts.
Nina: And if I can, we look for themes, we look for tone, we look for, of course, like Kelle said, patterns. And you can see here in this unintentional thinking in Kelle’s kind of default automatic thinking, there’s just a lot of fear and scarcity, and this makes complete sense. It makes complete sense that your brain is coding a lot of what’s going on around you as threats. And you are on default in survival mode. Can we just call it like it is? I mean, you’re in literal survival mode.
Kelle: Yes, so true. And some questions that I asked myself when I was self-coaching this is, do people with hair have more value? Of course, no. Will I be happier once I have more hair again? No, I’ll be pumped when I don’t have cancer. That is what I’m focused on right now. How do I want to feel, not how do I look? So, I want to feel energized and clear and confident and strong and healthy and bold and sunny.
Nina: Yeah, I think too, part of this is the way we’re socialized as women. We can use the P word, patriarchy, but society itself has taught us to be self-sacrificing and to be accommodating and to source our value and certainty outside of ourselves. We’re taught to question how beautiful we are and how thin we are and how young we are, how enough we are. And we’re taught to look outside of ourselves for all of that and really not source that value on our own from within. So yeah, we’ve got to start poking holes in all of this. Does that make sense?
Kelle: Yeah, for sure. And I have had to remind myself of my fierceness, that fire that I have. And when I forget, I have people around me, my friends and neighbors and husband and family and all the people that are around me and supporting me through this and helping to remind me of that. And the more I peel back the layers on me, the more I get to know me and live in alignment with who I am, my favorite version of me when I’m being purposeful and intentional. I’m more discerning with how I spend my time and my energy. I have a stronger voice for myself. I am listening to what’s really important to me and I’m listening to what I deeply care about. And again, whether it’s how you look with me or it’s what you’re going through personally, whether it’s an illness or cancer or divorce or how you parent or what you wear or how you lead if you’re a business owner or an executive. Or how you treat patients if you’re a doctor, how you live, how you spend money. You’re going to worry about what other people think of you. And people are going to have thoughts about how you should do things, how we should do things. What we should look like and who we should be. And we all have to just remind ourselves that, one of the main concepts that Nina and I work with, it’s kind of a next level concept after the three R’s which we talked about in the last episode, episode 34. It’s really to let people be wrong about you, to let them have their thoughts and opinions and make your opinion matter more than theirs.
Nina: Not to source all of your value from everyone else’s thoughts about you. To come up with your own thoughts about yourself and start to believe those and honor those too. I think one of the most important takeaways from what you’ve just said, what I heard you say was how discerning you’ve become. You have to be right now. You have to choose where you want your brain to be. You have to choose what you want your head space to look and feel like and you have to be discerning or you could just spiral, I’m guessing.
Kelle: Yeah, for sure. I have to really watch my brain and just make sure that I’m thinking useful thoughts. And of course, my brain goes to heaviness and negativity and it’s up to me to bring myself out of that, not for other people to do it for me, but for me to be able to do that for myself and support myself in that way and that’s a big thing that we teach our clients.
Nina: I think this is called kind inner self-talk. That sounds so basic, but it’s actually an acronym that one of our mentors teaches, it’s called KIST. And this is really, really important when you need support and you’re looking outside of yourself for it. You have the opportunity to support yourself first. So, I’m okay, everything’s going to be alright. I’ve got you. You’re just talking to yourself this way, right?
Kelle: Totally. Yeah, and when I remind myself or I am reminded of who I am, I’m like, “Who effing cares?” I am trying to stay alive right now. I’m in, like Nina said, the ultimate survival state, going to doctor’s appointments, getting countless labs, trying to eat enough so I don’t lose more weight and wondering if my cell count will be high enough to get treatment this week. Wondering if they’ll be able to find a vein in my arm or if I’m going to have to get a port which I don’t really want at this point. It’s another surgery. It’s actually two surgeries, one to put it in and one to take it out, so yeah, there’s that. There’s sitting for hours on end for chemotherapy and immunotherapy. There’s researching alternative therapies, specific guided meditations, cranial, sacral. I’ve been getting acupuncture and most recently, hyperbaric chamber therapy, anything that might help me heal. And that’s where I want to spend my time and energy. So much of my life force was spent worrying about my hair, and now I look back at those thoughts and I’m just like, “Oh, my God, my brain was just on one.” So, it’s so interesting, it’s given me so much perspective, that fear that I have of being judged. If people have thoughts about me not having hair or right now it’s my hair looking thin because it is falling out, they really are none of my business, their opinions have nothing to do with me.
Nina: That’s so true. You really do have to suck yourself out and gain perspective and really be aware of your thoughts, be onto yourself to do this work right?
Kelle: Yeah.
Nina: So, let’s do this. Why don’t we just look at the facts right now, go ahead, what are the facts?
Kelle: Yeah. So, the facts are, my hair is thin. It’s slowly falling out. This is temporary. This is a thought that I’ve used for myself. I have seven more weeks of treatment right now. So, I finish chemotherapy as of now, mid-December. So, looking forward to that and just knowing I can do anything for two months.
Nina: Yeah. And when that old part of your brain takes you to that place where you start to worry. Where do you go? Go ahead.
Kelle: I just have empathy and compassion for that part of me, that sweet part of me, that at one point in my life, when I was very young, learned that people are nice to you when you match the cultural standard of what it looks like to be beautiful. So, it’s interesting because I’ve always had this bright blonde hair, but it’s not my blonde hair that makes me beautiful. It’s my smile and my positive energy, the way I fiercely care for my kids and the people in my life, my husband and my friends and my neighbors. It’s how I care deeply about our clients and the work that we do, how I move through the world loving nature and beauty and always wanting to grow and evolve. That’s what I want to be beautiful for.
Nina: You are babes, you’re gorge. I know, it’s so interesting what your brain does, it’s just bullshit.
Kelle: Yeah, so, a big part of this is just us walking you through like how we coach ourselves, because of course, we, Nina and I are human and we coach ourselves and then we have coaches, of course. We have personal coaches and we have a business coach and there’s a lot of coaching going on in our lives.
Nina: Yeah, there is a lot, we absolutely need our brains coached. Kel, I read this article, I thought it’d be cool to mention to listeners about Liz Gilbert on Instagram. I sent it to you.
Kelle: Yeah, I saw that. And I picked out this quote. So, Liz Gilbert, she’s written so many books, Eat, Pray, Love, was the big one. She talked in this article about how she buzzed her hair. She just got tired of her hair, she said, her hair has always been difficult, and she recently buzzed it off. And she said, “That night I had a realization. I can either complain about how unfair and imbalanced the beauty and aging standards are for men versus women, or just claim for myself the entitlement that these men hold. I, too, could just decide to have buzzed hair and a lined face. I, too, could decide to just stop chasing pretty. And instead to look great, unadorned, powerful, comfortable, and un-fussed over.” I know, yeah, it’s awesome.
Nina: Yeah. So, concept wise here, Kel, if we can crystallize a couple of things, a couple of takeaways here, maybe one or two. What do you think?
Kelle: So, like we said, this episode is kind of on the piggyback to episode 34 where we talk about the three R’s and give a bunch of client examples on how to stop caring about what other people think of you. And what I’ve done in here is kind of next level, it’s kind of, we do the thought work. And then we really do the emotional work too. So, it’s feeling the heaviness and being okay with some of the harder times and just knowing that hard times are going to come. Life is 50/50, so we’re going to have hard times and we’re going to have amazing times and we’re going to have a bunch of in between times and so, it’s just noticing all of that. So, life is 50/50 is definitely one of those concepts I’ve used. Like I mentioned, let them be wrong about you. We love reminding ourselves and our clients that it’s okay because people are going to have opinions and thoughts about you no matter what. So, you can just let them have their opinions and thoughts, and you can know what your truth is and how that wisdom and that understanding and that knowing for yourself.
Nina: Yeah, and sometimes you have to build that belief or knowing in yourself. Sometimes it doesn’t happen right away and that’s okay, and we can help you do that. But building belief is an option here too, learning to like yourself more, learning to love yourself more, learning to treat yourself better internally first.
Kelle: Yeah. And then there’s just one more I want to share. If it’s all a guess of what people are thinking, why don’t we choose a better feeling guess? So, we can think that everyone is, in my instance, looking at my thin hair and the dark circles under my eyes and the no eyelashes and just judging me. I can think that or I can walk around and just think, maybe they’re looking at me because they like the shirt I’m wearing or the smile that I have on my face, or the energy that I’m bringing.
Nina: They just like being around you because you’re awesome, yeah. It’s so funny, well, and then just one more sort of takeaway that I love from one of our queens, Brené Brown, Kel. She suggests that you take just a small post-it note and write the names of the people whose opinions you actually care about and keep that close by. Keep an inner circle. Have people that you know you can pick up the phone and call. Connection is everything when you need help, kind of getting your head space cleaned up, cleaning up your thoughts and remembering what’s true and beautiful about you. So just a small post-it note. It doesn’t have to be a long list. This is your inner circle, these are your peeps, so I love that too.
Kelle: All of this for me has really been a masterclass in how to not care about what other people think of you. And that’s why we want to bring this on today, just to let you know that there are so many ways that we can go about this. And if this has spoken to you, just know that there’s so many resources for you.
Nina: Absolutely. Alright, Kel, thanks for sharing that with us today. And thanks for being here, listeners. We’ll see you next time.
Kelle: Yeah, we’ll see you next time. Thank you.
Nina: Hey everyone, if you want more live access to me and Kelle, you have to join our email list.
Kelle: Yes, we’ll come to your email box every Tuesday and Thursday.
Nina: You can ask us questions, get clarity and get coached.
Kelle: We offer monthly free email coaching when you’re on our list and you’re the first to know about trainings, events and other free coaching opportunities.
Nina: Just go to kelleandnina.com. That’s K E L L E and nina.com to sign up.
Kelle: Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of Ambitious-Ish.
Nina: If you’re ready to align your ambitions with your heart and feel more calm, balanced, and connected, visit https://www.kelleandnina.com/ for more information about how to work with us and make sure you get on our list.
Kelle: See you in the next episode!
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