16. The Problem With Perfectionism
You might not consider yourself a perfectionist. But the truth is, there are some common misunderstandings around what perfectionism is and where it comes from, and if you buy into these, it stops you from seeing how perfectionism is really holding you back.
We often think that being a perfectionist offers us some protection as we move through the world. However, perfectionism is a survival mechanism living at the intersection of a fear of failure, imposter syndrome, burnout, and strain in your relationships, and is actually stopping you from creating a life you love. It's time for you to go deeper, to uncover how your perfectionism is holding you back, and to start doing something about it. We’re here to help!
Tune in this week to discover what perfectionism is, and how to stop it from having a negative influence on your life and how you feel. We discuss where your perfectionist tendencies come from, and how these tendencies are stopping you from finding peace in your life, and we share three common myths around perfectionism to help you bust misunderstandings around it.
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What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
What perfectionism is and how it might be showing up in your life.
How perfectionism serves as a form of avoidance.
The collective, societal desire we have to be viewed by others as perfect.
3 myths of perfectionism that we need to stop believing.
How you became a perfectionist in the first place.
3 strategies to start overcoming your perfectionism.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Full Episode Transcript:
Nina: Hey, Ambitious-Ish listeners, let’s talk about perfectionism.
Kelle: It’s Brené Brown who says perfectionism is a 20 ton shield that we lug around thinking it will protect us when in fact it’s the thing that’s really preventing us from taking flight.
Nina: Wow. Did you even know perfectionism was a survival mechanism?
Kelle: I mean, yes, of course I did, it’s true. With our perfectionism, we’re unwittingly trying to protect ourselves or, in other words, avoid discomfort.
Nina: Huh, I just thought it was one of those annoying ways people around me are and that I am sometimes if I’m being real.
Kelle: Yeah, perfectionism is that thread linking fear of failure, procrastination, imposter syndrome, burnout, and straining your relationships.
Nina: Well, geez, I could totally should on myself for not knowing that or now that we do know, let’s do something about it, all of that.
Kelle: Yeah, let’s pull the thread so you can stop holding yourself back in these ways. It’s all in another episode of Ambitious-Ish. Let’s get going.
Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Kelle: Hey, I’m Kelle.
Nina: And I’m Nina. Okay, let’s dive into today’s show. Have you ever been called a perfectionist, Kelle?
Kelle: Oh, yeah.
Nina: Or have you referred to someone else as a perfectionist?
Kelle: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, all of the above.
Nina: Which one?
Kelle: All of the above.
Nina: Well, I can definitely spot a perfectionist out in the world, but they don’t really present like most people might expect.
Kelle: So true. Let’s talk about what exactly perfectionism is. Perfectionism is defined as an unrealistic drive to be flawless combined with intense negative self-talk. It’s one thing to strive for 100% and get a 94 and be pleased. It’s another thing to beat yourself up for getting a 99%.
Nina: Oh, my God, totally. One of our queens, her name is Dr. Jen Douglas, she’s a psychologist specializing in perfectionism. She’s Dr. Jen on Instagram if you want to check her out. And her work is all about perfectionism being directly related to avoidance. It’s this intense and desperate desire to avoid imperfection because that would represent a fall from grace or self-esteem for the person.
Kelle: Avoidance is one of the hallmark traits of anxiety. When we engage in perfectionism, we’re trying to avoid discomfort like anxiety. So, the discomfort of doing it all wrong, what will they think? Or of being rejected, what will happen to me? Or being judged or blamed, will I survive? Go back to episode six for more here. It’s all about feelings and how our feelings drive all the actions or inaction we do. It’s such a good one.
Nina: Yeah. So, Dr. Jen says that when we start to overcome our avoidance, when we start to dismantle it, we get to live the life we want. And we do this, we dismantle it by checking in on the thoughts and feelings driving the avoidance.
Kelle: So good. One of our other queens, Brené Brown, explains that perfectionism it’s a self-destructive and addictive belief system that fuels this one primary thought. If I look and do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize the painful feelings of blame, judgment, and shame. She goes on to explain that perfectionism is the 20 ton shield that we carry around, hoping that it’ll keep us from getting hurt.
Nina: This really lands. We have to hang here for a sec. Whoa. And listen to this. Over the past 30 plus years, studies have shown that the desire to be perceived as perfect has shot up 33% in the western world, likely because our world has become so much more demanding of us so, we’re far more likely to be hard on ourselves and present a spotless image. And there are two main catalysts here we’re guessing. I mean, number one, the internet, social media, and number two, free market capitalism.
Kelle: We know you get the social media conundrum, I mean who doesn’t? But when we internalize the idea that our worth is directly related to our efforts and productivity, this is what the free market tells us and what society has increasingly taught us over the years. We constantly fall short and are ‘lazy’ if we’re not as well off as someone else.
Nina: Listen, you weren’t born a perfectionist control freak. You learned this way of contraction for survival and that’s exactly the way it feels, contracted. Are we right? Perfectionism feels tight and clenched and exhausting. So, what’s the origin of perfectionism, then? Well, the lion’s share comes from our family of origin or our family culture. Maybe your parents never told you point blank you had to get A’s, but it was sort of assumed if you performed beautifully, you’d be rewarded. It was an unspoken understanding.
Kelle: I just had a conversation with a client about this today, that’s so funny. And tacking on, a lot of people seek out safety in performance. This is exactly who we work with in our coaching practice. It’s a pretty specific think, feel, act pattern. And perfectionist thinking is a common thinking habit for high functioning strivers.
Nina: Some of our clients learned perfectionist tendencies to avoid being judged when they were young, to avoid the anxiety of, what if they find out, so they overperformed to avoid judgment. One of our clients knew when she was young that she wasn’t like the other girls. She felt maybe she wasn’t a girl herself when she kind of started liking other girls. It was confusing at her young age to not like boys but to like girls. But she grew up in WASP Central in the Northeast and being gay wasn’t something she bumped into until she was really out of college.
Up until that point, she pointed it in the striving department to feel like she wasn’t just part of the tribe, she was one of the queens of the tribe. She excelled at sports in school, won the awards, was on all the literal leaderboards. Back east, it’s all about the wooden boards mounted on the walls, engraved with names in gold for school honors and athletic honors. Anyway, she got into a killer college and continued to excel. She learned to over-function and excel to avoid the anxiety of who am I really and do I fit in.
Kelle: Yeah. And sometimes there was dysfunctional behavior in the family of origin and perfectionism was literally a survival mechanism, it was necessary. You had to be careful around that person to not rock the boat, to please them or kind of tiptoe around them to do really well on paper, so to speak, and stay out of the way to avoid their negative attention.
Nina: But now we don’t have to be so cautious. Our brains are notoriously slow to evolve as quickly as the world around us. That’s why we unwittingly bring so many coping or survival mechanisms from our childhood to adulthood. And that’s where coaching shines, we can help you feel safe letting go of your old ways of being that really aren’t sustainable. Hello, resentment rash, burnout cycle, perfectionism, and people pleasing, and think on purpose to feel better, to actually enjoy the life you work so hard to create.
Kelle: Yeah. And did you know it’s true that women are more likely to be perfectionists than men?
Nina: It sort of makes sense to me.
Kelle: We are. And like other marginalized identities were historically underrepresented in patriarchy and so, we have a tendency to compensate. We even overcompensate to try to prove our worth and avoid feeling unvalued, to pull our own weight for survival. It’s that tribe mentality. There was a time when we had to work twice as hard as our male peers and I think that still stands even today. And we find ourselves constantly anxious, improving ourselves to show we deserve our promotions and our paychecks and the accolades and all the things.
Nina: Yeah, Kel, this just came up with a client who is in constant scarcity, that she’s being paid too much and that she’s going to be found out any day now. So, here’s the thing, patriarchy isn’t going anywhere, right, Kelle?
Kelle: Yeah. We don’t want to blame patriarchy for everything and focus on the problems of the world. This mindset keeps you stuck circling the dream, feeling anxious and discouraged and hopeful. Check our episode on blame, by the way, it’s number 14 and we’ll put a link in the show notes. We talk about navigating complicated circumstances in an empowered way without blame.
Nina: Let’s not sit around all day and complain and blame patriarchy for all of our woes. But the question still remains, how do we move forward in light of it? So, we approach circumstances like this with it is what it is, now what, mindset. While systemic forces aren’t always escapable or changeable, prioritizing your mental health and wellbeing is something you can always do.
Kelle: Yeah. So true, always. So, let’s talk about a few myths about perfectionism and the mindsets that might be holding you back as well as a few ways to work through them and move forward. And here’s a disclaimer right off the bat for any perfectionist listening right now. Moving forward isn’t about hitting big external goals, it’s about doing the inner work and recovering through internal acceptance and self-compassion.
Nina: Yeah. Alright, let’s talk about the three myths of perfectionism. Myth number one. Perfectionism always presents as type A neat freaks with organized color-coded folders and elaborate daily routines.
Kelle: Well, I can think of a lot of people that fit that bill.
Nina: But not everyone.
Kelle: Not everyone, totally. We had a client a few years ago who was borderline obsessed with returning all of her clients’ emails in a timely fashion, perfectly written, spelled right, and punctuated. She was reliable and responsible. She spent a lot of time overthinking each email and spent a lot of time at work. It got to the point where she was embarrassed that she was working so late at night and emailing her clients after midnight that she’d queue the emails to go out the next day, so she didn’t look like such a workaholic.
Nina: Yeah. So many of our amazing clients fall into this category. They’re ambitious and put together, but their perfectionism is actually based in shame and unworthiness and centers on avoiding failure. It goes way deeper than surface level organization and pillow fluffing.
Kelle: Okay. Does this sound like you? You never feel good about what you’ve done. Or you’ve maybe missed important deadlines because you obsess so much. Or you need a permission slip to acknowledge you’re knowledgeable and worthy. Or once you have the degree, you’ll have something to contribute but until then you know nothing.
Nina: You’re unable to shut off, constantly check listing mentally. You tend to people please. Without outside validation, you feel worthless, and you ruminate about what you did wrong. Self-confidence is like a gas tank with a hole in it. You’re so tired, but the only way you know how to shore up is to do more. You devalue your accomplishments. And when people compliment you, you just don’t believe them.
Kelle: Yeah, these are the super high achievers always going for extra credit with the perfect house.
Nina: And they’re stuck on what’s called the hedonic treadmill. We have an idea or goal about something that will make us happy and then we hit that, and we don’t experience that relief or elation, we instead have a combination of imposter syndrome. Oh, my God. I don’t deserve this. They’re all going to find out the truth about me, and I’m not really as good as they think. And then we move the yardstick. I got the dream job, but I need to hand in this report in six weeks and then I’ll actually enjoy the job.
Kelle: Yeah. We tell ourselves if we get it done or do this, then I’ll feel good about myself. But if you can’t find the life you love now, it’s unlikely you’ll feel better later.
Nina: Kelle, I feel like you say this is called the I’ll be happy when syndrome.
Kelle: Totally. Yeah, it never works. Just be happy now, people. We can help you. Okay, so myth number two. Perfectionists get things done. You might hope your surgeon or accountant was a perfectionist, right?
Nina: Well, the research says not so fast, that’s because the anxiety of making mistakes can get in the way and take things longer. When we obsess too much and doubt ourselves on repeat, procrastination is all about avoidance.
Kelle: It’s when the anxiety of making mistakes gets in the way. By obsessing too much about getting it exactly right, we undermine our ability to succeed. We doubt ourselves and revisit small mistakes over and over. This is what we call the perfectionist paradox. We don’t even start because we’re afraid to fail.
Nina: Such a shame. It’s tragic. I see this with my kids sometimes. Youth sports these days get so competitive, so quickly. But for one of my boys, sports come pretty easily. I played a lot of lacrosse growing up and I wish, I so wish he’d give it a try, but he won’t really right now for more than one reason. But at first it was his fear of not being the best player that held him back. He’s just used to being really good at things and the idea of not being the best held him back for a while. We did end up giving it a try and we’ve actually landed in baseball, which is not my favorite between us, but still a cool experience to go through with him to deconstruct some of that fear.
Kelle: A big part of this mindset is all or nothing thinking. Either you’re the best at something or it’s a waste of time or you hit your goal, or you completely failed.
Nina: Yeah. And this shows up as a tendency to give up when the smallest thing goes wrong. Do you know people who do this? And we’re here to tell you and all of our clients practice this, fails are part of success, not the opposite, it’s part of the process.
Kelle: Yeah. This is something that we really have to unwind with our clients. Some of us are so afraid of failure that we don’t even try. We like to call it quitting ahead of time. Like when you read the requirements for a job that’s asking for seven years of experience and you only have five years, you just don’t even apply. So that’s a cost of perfectionism. And by the way, most men would just apply anyway. It’s so interesting.
Nina: Oh my God, I think that’s a fact actually, I’ve read that somewhere, I don’t know. It’s so interesting. So okay, myth number three. You have to be perfect to have value in the world. This gives me the chills a little bit. This is that fear based mindset that basically it’s fine for others to make mistakes, but not me. I’m not worthy. I need to prove I’m worthy and deserving of love, always to everyone all the time.
Kelle: Oh, boy, this fear shows up when it comes to missing deadlines at work or obligations for your daughter’s soccer team. We fear we won’t be loved, or we aren’t worthy as we are, the messy and imperfect and beautiful humans we are.
Nina: Perfectionism can be a response to trauma. We mentioned this a few minutes ago. For a lot of us, we were children who had to mediate or manage our parents’ emotions, so we grow up to be perfectionists. We learned our surroundings weren’t safe unless we stepped in, doing whatever we could to please our parents and spare us their cruelty or reaction.
Kelle: Yeah, I was talking with a client today about reading the room growing up.
Nina: Oh, totally.
Kelle: Yeah, reading the room and being like, “Okay, how should I be based on how the adults in my life are feeling?” Yeah, sometimes they feel they aren’t safe unless they step in to help. These are the kids and now adults who frequently stay up late to over-clean or overwork. I was just talking with one of our clients today and she was talking about when she was younger, she would have to kind of read the room and be like, “Okay, based on what the adults are feeling today, how do I need to be, how do I need to show up so that I can just avoid any discomfort on their part?”
Nina: It’s exhausting, especially for a little one.
Kelle: Yeah.
Nina: Yeah. There are so many who have been there, who have done that, who have had to do that. You can kind of see how perfectionism can in some circumstances be seen as a form of self-abuse. This really landed for another client when we offered this to her. She had spent basically her whole adult life trying to avoid abusive people because her childhood was riddled with it. And she didn’t realize that all along her perfectionism was in a way, abusing herself.
Kelle: Yeah. Even if you had a loving and supportive childhood, you still may have received covert messages that there was a focus on achievement like mom took you for ice-cream when she liked your report card, for example. Or over time we learn this is how we have value.
Nina: Perfectionism offers a false sense of control. It delivers temporary emotional relief. It’s us unwittingly telling ourselves we’ll avoid rejection and abuse if we just do everything right.
Kelle: Here’s the thing, rock stars, perfect is impossible and no matter what you do, bad things will happen, not even bad things, but also we just mess up.
Nina: Yeah, we just mess up, it’s just a mistake, yeah, totally.
Kelle: Yeah. We are allowed to make mistakes, by the way.
Nina: Everyone makes mistakes, you’re a human, not a robot. Let’s talk about a few remedies. I’m rushing to the remedies because this all felt a little painful, but it’s very real. Let’s talk about a few ways to work through perfectionism and deconstruct it. If we could wave a magic wand and get rid of your perfectionism, we’re here to tell you you’d actually be more successful. We promise.
Kelle: One of the most destructive aspects of perfectionism is that it prevents us from being kind to ourselves. We fear that if we relax we’ll become complacent and indulgent, but by obsessing too much over getting it exactly right, we actually undermine our ability to succeed.
Nina: Yeah. When healthy strivers make mistakes, when they mess up, they see it as a learning experience. They course correct and move on. Kelle always says, you’re either winning or learning. There’s no failing. But perfectionists get stuck, revisiting even the smallest mistake over and over, and making themselves feel terrible about even trying at all.
Kelle: But by cutting ourselves some slack, it actually makes us more likely to improve and less likely to give up, which is really the only way to fail is to actually give up. So, let’s talk about three ways to move forward with a healthier mindset. And remember, if you slip up here and there on the path to recovery, that’s okay. As with all things in life, it’s all about progress, not perfection. So, number one, scrap the idea that perfectionism is serving you.
Nina: Yeah, perfectionism is a connection breaker. If your goal is to be liked, you actually push people away when you try to be someone you’re not. Our vulnerabilities and our truths connect us, truly. One of our clients says, “Show me your friends and I’ll show you your future.” And it’s so key and so true.
Kelle: In a 2005 study on how perfectionism affects performance, we learned that it makes a big difference, but not in the way you might expect. Looking at pro athletes, the athletes who displayed more perfectionism than others became overly concerned about their mistakes, their fear of failure undermined their potential and made them do far worse than their peers.
Nina: That’s like they’re overthinking everything and they can’t get out of their own way.
Kelle: I think everyone at some point can relate to this.
Nina: Yeah, but this is an interesting study with professional athletes who are paid to do what they do and they’re still getting in their own way. It’s just so interesting. Perfectionism also undermines our leadership abilities. Most people, when given a choice, would rather work for a leader who practices humility than perfectionism. That’s shocking. And their teams usually thrive accordingly. I can’t remember again where I read this, but I can try to dig it out.
Kelle: Can I just say, there is a perfectionist in my house right now. I’m not going to say who. Nina knows exactly who it is. Someone’s visiting and yeah, I’m hiding in here. I’d rather be in here recording a podcast with you, Nina.
Nina: So, we’ll just take this one nice and slow. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so we left off on number two. Explore where you learned you weren’t good enough. The first remedy, scrap the idea of the perfectionism serves you. The second, explore where you learned you weren’t good enough.
Kelle: This is for those days when you’re telling yourself anything less than extraordinary is dishonorable and lazy. We’ve all been there, the L word.
Nina: This is a great chance to check in and get curious. Where did I learn that? What am I trying to protect myself from? And even, what do I wish I could say to that younger version of myself? See how far back you can go here. It’s really interesting work.
Kelle: So good. Okay that was number two. So on to number three. Move away from these stories and expectations. So, consider asking yourself and even asking a few friends, what do I bring to the table without even trying? What are my positive attributes?
Nina: Yeah, consider, what do my friends like about me? My family, what do they like about me? Who would you be without following someone else’s rules? What would I do if no one else’s opinion mattered?
Kelle: It’s so fun when we give this to clients as an assignment, what they come back with.
Nina: It’s so interesting.
Kelle: Okay, but the important part here is to then feel safe slowly and surely in the discomfort of messiness, set what we call micro approach goals.
Nina: Yeah. We want to freak your nervous system out by ripping off the Band-Aid here and breaking all the rules you’ve unwittingly been following your whole life, those kind of subconscious rules.
Kelle: Yeah. But if your goal is to not fail, you’ll never feel that good in the pursuit, and you won’t be thrilled when you achieve it.
Nina: So instead, start setting what we call approach goals, achieving a positive instead of avoidance goals, preventing a negative. Avoidance is a big one in coaching, we always try and poke holes in this and spread it out. So, for example, if you’re going to give a presentation at work, say to yourself, I want to impress people with my storytelling rather than, I don’t want to look like I don’t know what I’m doing, avoidance goal. Moving on to number four, recognize when good enough is good enough and practice what we call B minus work.
Kelle: Yeah, this for a lot of our high achievers, it kind of makes our skin crawl, it does anyway for a lot of women we work with, so we tend to suggest A minus or B plus work for them.
Nina: This is how we get a little messy, gently, slowly but surely, and it’s freedom for so many of our clients once they dip their toe into this concept.
Kelle: Yeah. This is a super productive way to curb that burnout cycle you find yourself in on repeat and it’s a great way to learn how to delegate and prioritize.
Nina: This is your permission slip to get things done.
Kelle: It totally is, B minus work is a procrastination killer. Give it a try. And going back to that client, remember that was sending emails really late at night and then would change them to the morning. When she practiced this, when she practiced this B minus work, she gave herself so much permission to not make everything perfect, to screw up, you can misspell. What is going to happen to you if you misspell something?
Nina: Yeah, so interesting once we start doing this work. So that’s all we have for you today. Perfectionism has so many layers, though, and this is just a perfectionism 101 for now. If you know and love a perfectionist in your life, send them this episode.
Kelle: Yes. And there’s so much more to come here for sure.
Nina: Yeah. That said, let us know what you want to hear more of on the show. We’d love to hear your burning questions. You can email us any time at kelleandnina@gmail.com for requests, questions, and insight. And that’s K-E-L-L-E and Nina N-I-N-A @gmail.com.
Kelle: Yeah, we actually read our own emails, every single one. Well, I should say Nina does, I kind of skim.
Nina: We really do, it’s a team effort, we do. We forward them back and forth. Alright, cool, thank you so much for joining us today. We will see you next time.
Kelle: Alright, Thanks all.
Nina: If you enjoyed today’s show and don’t want to worry about missing an episode, you can follow the show wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you haven’t already, we would really appreciate it if you share the podcast with others who you think would benefit from it and leave a rating and review to let us know what you think.
Kelle: It doesn’t have to be a 5 star rating, although we sure hope you love the show. We want your honest feedback so we can create an awesome podcast that provides tons of value. Visit ambitious-ish.com/podcastlaunch for step by step instructions on how to follow, rate and review.
Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of Ambitious-Ish.
Nina: If you’re ready to align your ambitions with your heart and feel more calm, balanced, and connected, visit https://www.kelleandnina.com/ for more information about how to work with us and make sure you get on our list.
Kelle: See you in the next episode!
Kelle: It’s Brené Brown who says perfectionism is a 20 ton shield that we lug around thinking it will protect us when in fact it’s the thing that’s really preventing us from taking flight.
Nina: Wow. Did you even know perfectionism was a survival mechanism?
Kelle: I mean, yes, of course I did, it’s true. With our perfectionism, we’re unwittingly trying to protect ourselves or, in other words, avoid discomfort.
Nina: Huh, I just thought it was one of those annoying ways people around me are and that I am sometimes if I’m being real.
Kelle: Yeah, perfectionism is that thread linking fear of failure, procrastination, imposter syndrome, burnout, and straining your relationships.
Nina: Well, geez, I could totally should on myself for not knowing that or now that we do know, let’s do something about it, all of that.
Kelle: Yeah, let’s pull the thread so you can stop holding yourself back in these ways. It’s all in another episode of Ambitious-Ish. Let’s get going.
Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Kelle: Hey, I’m Kelle.
Nina: And I’m Nina. Okay, let’s dive into today’s show. Have you ever been called a perfectionist, Kelle?
Kelle: Oh, yeah.
Nina: Or have you referred to someone else as a perfectionist?
Kelle: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, all of the above.
Nina: Which one?
Kelle: All of the above.
Nina: Well, I can definitely spot a perfectionist out in the world, but they don’t really present like most people might expect.
Kelle: So true. Let’s talk about what exactly perfectionism is. Perfectionism is defined as an unrealistic drive to be flawless combined with intense negative self-talk. It’s one thing to strive for 100% and get a 94 and be pleased. It’s another thing to beat yourself up for getting a 99%.
Nina: Oh, my God, totally. One of our queens, her name is Dr. Jen Douglas, she’s a psychologist specializing in perfectionism. She’s Dr. Jen on Instagram if you want to check her out. And her work is all about perfectionism being directly related to avoidance. It’s this intense and desperate desire to avoid imperfection because that would represent a fall from grace or self-esteem for the person.
Kelle: Avoidance is one of the hallmark traits of anxiety. When we engage in perfectionism, we’re trying to avoid discomfort like anxiety. So, the discomfort of doing it all wrong, what will they think? Or of being rejected, what will happen to me? Or being judged or blamed, will I survive? Go back to episode six for more here. It’s all about feelings and how our feelings drive all the actions or inaction we do. It’s such a good one.
Nina: Yeah. So, Dr. Jen says that when we start to overcome our avoidance, when we start to dismantle it, we get to live the life we want. And we do this, we dismantle it by checking in on the thoughts and feelings driving the avoidance.
Kelle: So good. One of our other queens, Brené Brown, explains that perfectionism it’s a self-destructive and addictive belief system that fuels this one primary thought. If I look and do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize the painful feelings of blame, judgment, and shame. She goes on to explain that perfectionism is the 20 ton shield that we carry around, hoping that it’ll keep us from getting hurt.
Nina: This really lands. We have to hang here for a sec. Whoa. And listen to this. Over the past 30 plus years, studies have shown that the desire to be perceived as perfect has shot up 33% in the western world, likely because our world has become so much more demanding of us so, we’re far more likely to be hard on ourselves and present a spotless image. And there are two main catalysts here we’re guessing. I mean, number one, the internet, social media, and number two, free market capitalism.
Kelle: We know you get the social media conundrum, I mean who doesn’t? But when we internalize the idea that our worth is directly related to our efforts and productivity, this is what the free market tells us and what society has increasingly taught us over the years. We constantly fall short and are ‘lazy’ if we’re not as well off as someone else.
Nina: Listen, you weren’t born a perfectionist control freak. You learned this way of contraction for survival and that’s exactly the way it feels, contracted. Are we right? Perfectionism feels tight and clenched and exhausting. So, what’s the origin of perfectionism, then? Well, the lion’s share comes from our family of origin or our family culture. Maybe your parents never told you point blank you had to get A’s, but it was sort of assumed if you performed beautifully, you’d be rewarded. It was an unspoken understanding.
Kelle: I just had a conversation with a client about this today, that’s so funny. And tacking on, a lot of people seek out safety in performance. This is exactly who we work with in our coaching practice. It’s a pretty specific think, feel, act pattern. And perfectionist thinking is a common thinking habit for high functioning strivers.
Nina: Some of our clients learned perfectionist tendencies to avoid being judged when they were young, to avoid the anxiety of, what if they find out, so they overperformed to avoid judgment. One of our clients knew when she was young that she wasn’t like the other girls. She felt maybe she wasn’t a girl herself when she kind of started liking other girls. It was confusing at her young age to not like boys but to like girls. But she grew up in WASP Central in the Northeast and being gay wasn’t something she bumped into until she was really out of college.
Up until that point, she pointed it in the striving department to feel like she wasn’t just part of the tribe, she was one of the queens of the tribe. She excelled at sports in school, won the awards, was on all the literal leaderboards. Back east, it’s all about the wooden boards mounted on the walls, engraved with names in gold for school honors and athletic honors. Anyway, she got into a killer college and continued to excel. She learned to over-function and excel to avoid the anxiety of who am I really and do I fit in.
Kelle: Yeah. And sometimes there was dysfunctional behavior in the family of origin and perfectionism was literally a survival mechanism, it was necessary. You had to be careful around that person to not rock the boat, to please them or kind of tiptoe around them to do really well on paper, so to speak, and stay out of the way to avoid their negative attention.
Nina: But now we don’t have to be so cautious. Our brains are notoriously slow to evolve as quickly as the world around us. That’s why we unwittingly bring so many coping or survival mechanisms from our childhood to adulthood. And that’s where coaching shines, we can help you feel safe letting go of your old ways of being that really aren’t sustainable. Hello, resentment rash, burnout cycle, perfectionism, and people pleasing, and think on purpose to feel better, to actually enjoy the life you work so hard to create.
Kelle: Yeah. And did you know it’s true that women are more likely to be perfectionists than men?
Nina: It sort of makes sense to me.
Kelle: We are. And like other marginalized identities were historically underrepresented in patriarchy and so, we have a tendency to compensate. We even overcompensate to try to prove our worth and avoid feeling unvalued, to pull our own weight for survival. It’s that tribe mentality. There was a time when we had to work twice as hard as our male peers and I think that still stands even today. And we find ourselves constantly anxious, improving ourselves to show we deserve our promotions and our paychecks and the accolades and all the things.
Nina: Yeah, Kel, this just came up with a client who is in constant scarcity, that she’s being paid too much and that she’s going to be found out any day now. So, here’s the thing, patriarchy isn’t going anywhere, right, Kelle?
Kelle: Yeah. We don’t want to blame patriarchy for everything and focus on the problems of the world. This mindset keeps you stuck circling the dream, feeling anxious and discouraged and hopeful. Check our episode on blame, by the way, it’s number 14 and we’ll put a link in the show notes. We talk about navigating complicated circumstances in an empowered way without blame.
Nina: Let’s not sit around all day and complain and blame patriarchy for all of our woes. But the question still remains, how do we move forward in light of it? So, we approach circumstances like this with it is what it is, now what, mindset. While systemic forces aren’t always escapable or changeable, prioritizing your mental health and wellbeing is something you can always do.
Kelle: Yeah. So true, always. So, let’s talk about a few myths about perfectionism and the mindsets that might be holding you back as well as a few ways to work through them and move forward. And here’s a disclaimer right off the bat for any perfectionist listening right now. Moving forward isn’t about hitting big external goals, it’s about doing the inner work and recovering through internal acceptance and self-compassion.
Nina: Yeah. Alright, let’s talk about the three myths of perfectionism. Myth number one. Perfectionism always presents as type A neat freaks with organized color-coded folders and elaborate daily routines.
Kelle: Well, I can think of a lot of people that fit that bill.
Nina: But not everyone.
Kelle: Not everyone, totally. We had a client a few years ago who was borderline obsessed with returning all of her clients’ emails in a timely fashion, perfectly written, spelled right, and punctuated. She was reliable and responsible. She spent a lot of time overthinking each email and spent a lot of time at work. It got to the point where she was embarrassed that she was working so late at night and emailing her clients after midnight that she’d queue the emails to go out the next day, so she didn’t look like such a workaholic.
Nina: Yeah. So many of our amazing clients fall into this category. They’re ambitious and put together, but their perfectionism is actually based in shame and unworthiness and centers on avoiding failure. It goes way deeper than surface level organization and pillow fluffing.
Kelle: Okay. Does this sound like you? You never feel good about what you’ve done. Or you’ve maybe missed important deadlines because you obsess so much. Or you need a permission slip to acknowledge you’re knowledgeable and worthy. Or once you have the degree, you’ll have something to contribute but until then you know nothing.
Nina: You’re unable to shut off, constantly check listing mentally. You tend to people please. Without outside validation, you feel worthless, and you ruminate about what you did wrong. Self-confidence is like a gas tank with a hole in it. You’re so tired, but the only way you know how to shore up is to do more. You devalue your accomplishments. And when people compliment you, you just don’t believe them.
Kelle: Yeah, these are the super high achievers always going for extra credit with the perfect house.
Nina: And they’re stuck on what’s called the hedonic treadmill. We have an idea or goal about something that will make us happy and then we hit that, and we don’t experience that relief or elation, we instead have a combination of imposter syndrome. Oh, my God. I don’t deserve this. They’re all going to find out the truth about me, and I’m not really as good as they think. And then we move the yardstick. I got the dream job, but I need to hand in this report in six weeks and then I’ll actually enjoy the job.
Kelle: Yeah. We tell ourselves if we get it done or do this, then I’ll feel good about myself. But if you can’t find the life you love now, it’s unlikely you’ll feel better later.
Nina: Kelle, I feel like you say this is called the I’ll be happy when syndrome.
Kelle: Totally. Yeah, it never works. Just be happy now, people. We can help you. Okay, so myth number two. Perfectionists get things done. You might hope your surgeon or accountant was a perfectionist, right?
Nina: Well, the research says not so fast, that’s because the anxiety of making mistakes can get in the way and take things longer. When we obsess too much and doubt ourselves on repeat, procrastination is all about avoidance.
Kelle: It’s when the anxiety of making mistakes gets in the way. By obsessing too much about getting it exactly right, we undermine our ability to succeed. We doubt ourselves and revisit small mistakes over and over. This is what we call the perfectionist paradox. We don’t even start because we’re afraid to fail.
Nina: Such a shame. It’s tragic. I see this with my kids sometimes. Youth sports these days get so competitive, so quickly. But for one of my boys, sports come pretty easily. I played a lot of lacrosse growing up and I wish, I so wish he’d give it a try, but he won’t really right now for more than one reason. But at first it was his fear of not being the best player that held him back. He’s just used to being really good at things and the idea of not being the best held him back for a while. We did end up giving it a try and we’ve actually landed in baseball, which is not my favorite between us, but still a cool experience to go through with him to deconstruct some of that fear.
Kelle: A big part of this mindset is all or nothing thinking. Either you’re the best at something or it’s a waste of time or you hit your goal, or you completely failed.
Nina: Yeah. And this shows up as a tendency to give up when the smallest thing goes wrong. Do you know people who do this? And we’re here to tell you and all of our clients practice this, fails are part of success, not the opposite, it’s part of the process.
Kelle: Yeah. This is something that we really have to unwind with our clients. Some of us are so afraid of failure that we don’t even try. We like to call it quitting ahead of time. Like when you read the requirements for a job that’s asking for seven years of experience and you only have five years, you just don’t even apply. So that’s a cost of perfectionism. And by the way, most men would just apply anyway. It’s so interesting.
Nina: Oh my God, I think that’s a fact actually, I’ve read that somewhere, I don’t know. It’s so interesting. So okay, myth number three. You have to be perfect to have value in the world. This gives me the chills a little bit. This is that fear based mindset that basically it’s fine for others to make mistakes, but not me. I’m not worthy. I need to prove I’m worthy and deserving of love, always to everyone all the time.
Kelle: Oh, boy, this fear shows up when it comes to missing deadlines at work or obligations for your daughter’s soccer team. We fear we won’t be loved, or we aren’t worthy as we are, the messy and imperfect and beautiful humans we are.
Nina: Perfectionism can be a response to trauma. We mentioned this a few minutes ago. For a lot of us, we were children who had to mediate or manage our parents’ emotions, so we grow up to be perfectionists. We learned our surroundings weren’t safe unless we stepped in, doing whatever we could to please our parents and spare us their cruelty or reaction.
Kelle: Yeah, I was talking with a client today about reading the room growing up.
Nina: Oh, totally.
Kelle: Yeah, reading the room and being like, “Okay, how should I be based on how the adults in my life are feeling?” Yeah, sometimes they feel they aren’t safe unless they step in to help. These are the kids and now adults who frequently stay up late to over-clean or overwork. I was just talking with one of our clients today and she was talking about when she was younger, she would have to kind of read the room and be like, “Okay, based on what the adults are feeling today, how do I need to be, how do I need to show up so that I can just avoid any discomfort on their part?”
Nina: It’s exhausting, especially for a little one.
Kelle: Yeah.
Nina: Yeah. There are so many who have been there, who have done that, who have had to do that. You can kind of see how perfectionism can in some circumstances be seen as a form of self-abuse. This really landed for another client when we offered this to her. She had spent basically her whole adult life trying to avoid abusive people because her childhood was riddled with it. And she didn’t realize that all along her perfectionism was in a way, abusing herself.
Kelle: Yeah. Even if you had a loving and supportive childhood, you still may have received covert messages that there was a focus on achievement like mom took you for ice-cream when she liked your report card, for example. Or over time we learn this is how we have value.
Nina: Perfectionism offers a false sense of control. It delivers temporary emotional relief. It’s us unwittingly telling ourselves we’ll avoid rejection and abuse if we just do everything right.
Kelle: Here’s the thing, rock stars, perfect is impossible and no matter what you do, bad things will happen, not even bad things, but also we just mess up.
Nina: Yeah, we just mess up, it’s just a mistake, yeah, totally.
Kelle: Yeah. We are allowed to make mistakes, by the way.
Nina: Everyone makes mistakes, you’re a human, not a robot. Let’s talk about a few remedies. I’m rushing to the remedies because this all felt a little painful, but it’s very real. Let’s talk about a few ways to work through perfectionism and deconstruct it. If we could wave a magic wand and get rid of your perfectionism, we’re here to tell you you’d actually be more successful. We promise.
Kelle: One of the most destructive aspects of perfectionism is that it prevents us from being kind to ourselves. We fear that if we relax we’ll become complacent and indulgent, but by obsessing too much over getting it exactly right, we actually undermine our ability to succeed.
Nina: Yeah. When healthy strivers make mistakes, when they mess up, they see it as a learning experience. They course correct and move on. Kelle always says, you’re either winning or learning. There’s no failing. But perfectionists get stuck, revisiting even the smallest mistake over and over, and making themselves feel terrible about even trying at all.
Kelle: But by cutting ourselves some slack, it actually makes us more likely to improve and less likely to give up, which is really the only way to fail is to actually give up. So, let’s talk about three ways to move forward with a healthier mindset. And remember, if you slip up here and there on the path to recovery, that’s okay. As with all things in life, it’s all about progress, not perfection. So, number one, scrap the idea that perfectionism is serving you.
Nina: Yeah, perfectionism is a connection breaker. If your goal is to be liked, you actually push people away when you try to be someone you’re not. Our vulnerabilities and our truths connect us, truly. One of our clients says, “Show me your friends and I’ll show you your future.” And it’s so key and so true.
Kelle: In a 2005 study on how perfectionism affects performance, we learned that it makes a big difference, but not in the way you might expect. Looking at pro athletes, the athletes who displayed more perfectionism than others became overly concerned about their mistakes, their fear of failure undermined their potential and made them do far worse than their peers.
Nina: That’s like they’re overthinking everything and they can’t get out of their own way.
Kelle: I think everyone at some point can relate to this.
Nina: Yeah, but this is an interesting study with professional athletes who are paid to do what they do and they’re still getting in their own way. It’s just so interesting. Perfectionism also undermines our leadership abilities. Most people, when given a choice, would rather work for a leader who practices humility than perfectionism. That’s shocking. And their teams usually thrive accordingly. I can’t remember again where I read this, but I can try to dig it out.
Kelle: Can I just say, there is a perfectionist in my house right now. I’m not going to say who. Nina knows exactly who it is. Someone’s visiting and yeah, I’m hiding in here. I’d rather be in here recording a podcast with you, Nina.
Nina: So, we’ll just take this one nice and slow. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so we left off on number two. Explore where you learned you weren’t good enough. The first remedy, scrap the idea of the perfectionism serves you. The second, explore where you learned you weren’t good enough.
Kelle: This is for those days when you’re telling yourself anything less than extraordinary is dishonorable and lazy. We’ve all been there, the L word.
Nina: This is a great chance to check in and get curious. Where did I learn that? What am I trying to protect myself from? And even, what do I wish I could say to that younger version of myself? See how far back you can go here. It’s really interesting work.
Kelle: So good. Okay that was number two. So on to number three. Move away from these stories and expectations. So, consider asking yourself and even asking a few friends, what do I bring to the table without even trying? What are my positive attributes?
Nina: Yeah, consider, what do my friends like about me? My family, what do they like about me? Who would you be without following someone else’s rules? What would I do if no one else’s opinion mattered?
Kelle: It’s so fun when we give this to clients as an assignment, what they come back with.
Nina: It’s so interesting.
Kelle: Okay, but the important part here is to then feel safe slowly and surely in the discomfort of messiness, set what we call micro approach goals.
Nina: Yeah. We want to freak your nervous system out by ripping off the Band-Aid here and breaking all the rules you’ve unwittingly been following your whole life, those kind of subconscious rules.
Kelle: Yeah. But if your goal is to not fail, you’ll never feel that good in the pursuit, and you won’t be thrilled when you achieve it.
Nina: So instead, start setting what we call approach goals, achieving a positive instead of avoidance goals, preventing a negative. Avoidance is a big one in coaching, we always try and poke holes in this and spread it out. So, for example, if you’re going to give a presentation at work, say to yourself, I want to impress people with my storytelling rather than, I don’t want to look like I don’t know what I’m doing, avoidance goal. Moving on to number four, recognize when good enough is good enough and practice what we call B minus work.
Kelle: Yeah, this for a lot of our high achievers, it kind of makes our skin crawl, it does anyway for a lot of women we work with, so we tend to suggest A minus or B plus work for them.
Nina: This is how we get a little messy, gently, slowly but surely, and it’s freedom for so many of our clients once they dip their toe into this concept.
Kelle: Yeah. This is a super productive way to curb that burnout cycle you find yourself in on repeat and it’s a great way to learn how to delegate and prioritize.
Nina: This is your permission slip to get things done.
Kelle: It totally is, B minus work is a procrastination killer. Give it a try. And going back to that client, remember that was sending emails really late at night and then would change them to the morning. When she practiced this, when she practiced this B minus work, she gave herself so much permission to not make everything perfect, to screw up, you can misspell. What is going to happen to you if you misspell something?
Nina: Yeah, so interesting once we start doing this work. So that’s all we have for you today. Perfectionism has so many layers, though, and this is just a perfectionism 101 for now. If you know and love a perfectionist in your life, send them this episode.
Kelle: Yes. And there’s so much more to come here for sure.
Nina: Yeah. That said, let us know what you want to hear more of on the show. We’d love to hear your burning questions. You can email us any time at kelleandnina@gmail.com for requests, questions, and insight. And that’s K-E-L-L-E and Nina N-I-N-A @gmail.com.
Kelle: Yeah, we actually read our own emails, every single one. Well, I should say Nina does, I kind of skim.
Nina: We really do, it’s a team effort, we do. We forward them back and forth. Alright, cool, thank you so much for joining us today. We will see you next time.
Kelle: Alright, Thanks all.
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Kelle: It doesn’t have to be a 5 star rating, although we sure hope you love the show. We want your honest feedback so we can create an awesome podcast that provides tons of value. Visit ambitious-ish.com/podcastlaunch for step by step instructions on how to follow, rate and review.
Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of Ambitious-Ish.
Nina: If you’re ready to align your ambitions with your heart and feel more calm, balanced, and connected, visit https://www.kelleandnina.com/ for more information about how to work with us and make sure you get on our list.
Kelle: See you in the next episode!
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