39. Navigating Betrayal and Divorce
Have you ever felt like your flaws and character defects were actually survival mechanisms from your past? Like your people-pleasing, perfectionism, and defensiveness developed as a way to stay safe in your youth?
In this raw and vulnerable episode, Nina shares her journey of navigating a divorce after uncovering years of infidelity and broken trust in her marriage. Through therapy, coaching, and deep inner work, she’s gained powerful insights into how her tendencies were actually ways of coping with a toxic relationship.
Join us as we unpack key concepts like betrayal trauma, betrayal blindness, and high-functioning codependency that have been essential in Nina’s healing process. Discover the tools and mindset shifts that have helped her take responsibility for her part, find compassion for herself and her ex, and ultimately reframe her experiences in an empowering way. If you've ever struggled with self-blame, over-functioning, or feeling misunderstood, this episode will show you a path forward.
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What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
How your flaws and character defects can actually be survival mechanisms from your past.
What betrayal trauma and betrayal blindness are and how to identify them.
The key traits of high-functioning codependency and how it shows up in relationships.
Why blaming yourself in a toxic relationship is a textbook trauma response.
How to take responsibility for your part without excusing abusive behavior.
The importance of naming your experiences to navigate them more effectively.
Tools for processing betrayal trauma, including EMDR therapy.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Episode 23: The Self-Doubt Trap: How To Break Free and Unleash Your Full Potential
Episode 33: How Effective Boundaries Protect Your Energy: Burnout Mini-Series Part 5
Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency by Terri Cole
Full Episode Transcript:
Nina Lynch: You've heard us talk about how our flaws and character defects, the things we don't exactly love about ourselves are actually survival mechanisms from our youth, right?
Kelle Cobble: Yeah. Your people pleasing, your over functioning, your defensiveness, the way you might withdraw under conflict and even your perfectionism.
Nina: Yeah, these tendencies and ways of being kept you alive and safe at a time in your life when that was critical. And you've practiced them for years and years into adulthood.
Kelle: A big part of what we do in coaching is help our clients let go of these tendencies and controlling ways of being and learn how to find safety in healthier ways so they feel better.
Nina: That's where we're going today as I share what I've uncovered over the past year or so navigating a divorce, taking responsibility for what I can, understanding myself on a whole new level, getting angry unapologetically, forgiving but not forgetting, and how coaching and therapy have been essential along the way.
Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Hey, I'm Kelle. And I'm Nina. Let's just have a little disclaimer here.
There might be some f-bombs arising while we're talking. So just so you know that if you have little ones around.
Nina: Put us in your earbuds, in your AirPods today.
Kelle: Okay, today Nina and I are having a candid conversation about what is happening in her life, what has been happening in her life, and where she started and where she has grown out of what has been going on with her circumstances. So Nina, go ahead, just let us know how you want to start here.
Nina: Sort of coming out of a cave. It's been a heavy lift the past year. Actually, this is the one year mark when my marriage sort of fell apart. And so it's been a big 12 months, very full. And I just wanted to share with the listeners the kind of tools and concepts I'm using right now.
As some of you know, I'm separated from my ex and I'm working through the divorce process. There was a lot of infidelity and broken trust in our marriage and we tried to work through it, but it just kept happening. And over the past year, I've had to take a look at things I was in denial about for a long time.
Kelle: Yeah, the story here isn't like one of a loveless marriage with a one-off betrayal, right? It's something that has been going on for a very long time.
Nina: Yeah, there was chronic dishonesty and dishonest behavior since the day we met, it turns out, you know, over 18 years ago. And a big part of what I've been working through this past year is what the fuck Nina, why did you stay? What has been going on here? Why am I this damaged soul who settles for breadcrumbs?
Kelle: Yeah, but you did file for divorce, right, Rockstar? You did say enough was enough.
Nina: Enough was enough. I've been just really ashamed of myself as I've opened up to friends and family about all of this and what I've been hiding for so many years.
Kelle: Which is so unnecessary, right? This shame. And we just love you and support you and see you for all of our favorite things about you and all of our highest wishes for you. And episode 23 alluded to some of this, and it's all about self-doubt, so check that out if you haven't already.
Nina: Yeah, and I mean, Kelle always reminds me, I don't like to tell this story like a victim. I am a survivor of a pretty toxic relationship and I was really confused for a long time. But with therapy and coaching, I've learned so much and amplified my self-awareness and self-knowledge that now I feel like I flipped the script, so to speak, and reframed so much of what I've been through in a more empowering and compassionate light.
But at the same time, in this process, being an ambitious-ish woman like so many of our listeners, you know, I want to take responsibility for what I can take responsibility for and not fall again, like into that victim mindset, complaining and blaming. And so much of my work has been taking a look at that this past year too.
Like I said, and like Kelle and I talk about in episode 14, blame is really disempowering.
Kelle: Yeah, we do not want to blame. We want to kind of what we always say is keep our side of the street clean. And so much of what we talk about here on the pod is work we do personally. There are so many examples and that episode was a great one. So number 14, it's called Blame, the hidden obstacle holding you back.
Nina: Yeah, so as we write and share this work with you we're very much practicing it. That's our point here this past year. I've done so much excavating and reflecting and understanding. I mean, I have a coach. I have a therapist.
I have a sponsor. I work with energy healers and intuitives. I chant and meditate and pray and do yoga and I race my bike and I run like Forrest Gump up in the preserve behind where I live. There's just a lot happening over here in processing and grieving and all the things. And I'm telling this story today to share with you all the concepts and tools that I'm leaning into and just to demonstrate how this work Kelle and I do is truly an authentic extension of what we do and how we show up in our lives. So I've uncovered big time this past year what I consider, you know, my flaws and defects are actually the survival mechanisms that have kept me safe.
So tendencies I've leaned on for survival in a toxic relationship And when I can see it this way and bring in the self-compassion, I can extend that compassion to so many others in my life and even my ex. I've just been buried, felt so misunderstood by myself and by others, but everything started to make sense when I asked for help.
Kelle: And this is so key. So many people, women especially, don't ask for help. It's kind of like this, I've got this message and what do I really have to complain about? This is probably as good as it gets like just looking at your life and being like I should be grateful almost we can't stand that it's so yeah just so toxic
Nina: and what I learned in therapy and coaching and something Kelle and I do a lot with clients is we help them name things. Emotions, tendencies, behaviors, we help them label them.
Kelle: Yeah, when we can name things, we can navigate them and this is gold. If there's a modality or a name, someone has studied it. It's science. Other people have experienced it. So you know that you're not alone.
Nina: This has been gold for me because I didn't have language to explain what I was going through. You don't know what you don't know and this clarity has been huge.
Kelle: Yeah, that's why Nina and I quote a lot of science when we coach clients. We intellectualize things and name them, label them, so there's this feeling of being seen and understood intellectually and emotionally and so much more.
Nina: Yeah. So getting vulnerable and asking for help has seriously, again, been gold for me this year. Some ahas and spiritual awakenings and just like, fuck moments, like slow-mo, like, oh my God. And so I also along the way, you know, want to take a look at my responsibility here, like Kelle said, clean up my side of the street.
Now I'm not taking responsibility for anyone's behavior, right? I know that's impossible. I can't control, fix, or change another human. I didn't cause his behavior. Can't control it, can't change it. But I do identify as codependent, and a very special shade of codependent that I want to bring to this conversation and to our ambitious listeners.
So I wanted to share some concepts and again, tools that are landing for me right now on this journey and I'll just unpack a few today. But you know, what happened to my marriage happened over the course of 18 years and that's what I've needed to look at. Like why? Why did I "let this happen"? What have been my boundaries and standards of conduct and how did I let them be so compromised?
That's when I learned about betrayal, trauma and betrayal, blindness, and found a whole lot of compassion for myself. I never knew was available to me as I continue to understand and find words and labels and names for what I'd been going through. I didn't have those. I just felt crazy.
Kelle: Yeah. And this is why we wanted to talk about this today and bring on your story and bring some labels to what has been happening. Bring some labels to, again, like putting words to it so that you know that this is not just a one-off. Like this happens to a lot of people and there's books on it, there's other podcasts on it and we just wanted to call it out so that our listeners, if you hear this and see yourself in it, like we just want to help where we can help here. And another thing is talking about boundaries.
We talked about boundaries in episode 33. And this is all just to show you that we do this work too.
Nina: Yeah. And so when I was studying boundaries and learned how to set effective ones, I sort of understood them as standards of conduct, right? If you haven't listened to that episode number 33, we talk about if you, then I will format the boundary setting. It's really useful. So I didn't learn boundaries originally in this way.
So go ahead and check that out. And again, I'm using it in real life, but one of the readings that landed for me when I was studying all this said that when your boundaries are violated over and over again, you're not a victim, but a volunteer. This was one of those like, fuck moments for me, like, whoa, I have some things to look at here. And, You know, my therapist and coach were quick to prop me up because of course my brain went straight to self-blame and shame, right? Like this is textbook behavior in kind of emotionally abusive relationships, self-blame, right?
So I try to see this and my actions with compassion. I've even gotten to gratitude, you know, thanking my ex for making it crystal clear to me what my standards of conduct actually are.
Kelle: Yeah, but let's back up because what happened here was manipulative. And I'll go so far as to say, Of course, what you just said, emotionally abusive, right? You also mentioned betrayal of blindness. So let's unpack this more. What does this mean?
Nina: Yeah, sure. So betrayal trauma is a thing. I didn't know that. It's the trauma that results when someone you trust betrays you. I didn't know this was called trauma what I was going through.
Now I understand. When it was introduced to me it made me feel so seen and understood. I started to understand why this has been so hard to move through. Trauma is deep. It cuts you at the core.
It rocks your safety at the root. It's confusing and deeply impacts your self-trust and safety. So naming what I'd been through as traumatic made a ton of sense to me. Someone needed to do it for me. Someone needed to hold up the mirror and do this for me.
And so, you know, it just really landed like my whole body relaxed with understanding and a sort of strange sense of relief.
Kelle: Yeah. And I'm guessing it's almost like a diagnosis, maybe not the kind you want, but it's a diagnosis. Nonetheless, it's putting words to what you're feeling and experiencing.
Nina: Totally. And my therapist has helped me work through the trauma with the modality called EMDR. It's been life-giving. EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And it's a technique that helps people process traumatic memories and other distressing experiences.
Kelle: Yeah, so it's like an emotional processing tool.
Nina: Right, because this trauma wasn't an isolated event. This has been going on for a long time, and I've needed some help processing all of it. It's exhausting and deep work. And there have been days when I can't come out of an EMDR session and see a client. And Kelle's been so supportive and helpful and has had my back big time here.
Kelle: Which is why I love so much that we are partners and we can have each other's back and do this work together. And then of course, like taking clients separately when we need to take clients separately and that is like Just the real beauty of this coaching work that we do together. Yeah of our collab. Yeah better together.
Nina: Yeah, but you know emotional abuse happens over time. It's not a one-off event. That's what makes it you know abusive and it's a pattern over time often in long-term relationships. I had no idea this was a thing and listen y'all I'm like not a dum-dum.
I'm kind of high-functioning I'm not a doormat so this can happen to anyone which is what I'm learning I didn't understand any of this
Kelle: And typically the one doing the betraying their personality is organized in a way that they can't be in a healthy, balanced, equitable relationship. So that's why they betray to get their needs met, right?
Nina: Right, and that's when the gaslighting and manipulation and chronic dishonesty come in. Oh, yeah, she's just a friend. I was making a big deal out of nothing. She's a co-worker. The inappropriate text messages were just a joke, you know, it went on and on.
Kelle: Mmm, totally. This is also why I'm guessing and it makes sense why you blamed yourself for so long that gaslighting and manipulation made you believe you were the
Nina: Listen, I am not perfect. I'm a total pain in the ass sometimes, but this was not my fault. This is part of what they call betrayal blindness. I really believed there was something I'd done or should do differently to prevent this mistreatment.
This thinking removed his fault because I told myself I was the problem. And betrayal blindness is a survival response. You tell yourself it isn't happening because the reality of the situation is so incredibly destabilizing, it's easier to be blind to it. It's a form of freeze or maybe even fun. One of the three survival states, right?
There's fight, flight, freeze and fun. And betrayal blindness is a survival mechanism. It made sense that I sort of went into denial. I wanted to avoid destabilizing something I needed or wanted to maintain the status quo, right? I was married with kids and had a house and extended family and the focus became so heavily in maintaining the status quo, what got missed was the toll it was taking on me, the person staying in the relationship, the harm happening under the radar and how this contributed to my like anxiety, helplessness, self-blame, hopelessness, confusion and self-doubt.
So like in maintaining that status quo and trying to just keep everything as is, I was psychologically eroding. And what I'm learning now though is my impulse to wanna stay in this kind of toxic relationship came not just from a good place, but like one of the best places, which is like my drive to love. I wanted to love this guy. This compassionate lens is where I go instead of I'm a damaged soul who settles for breadcrumbs, you know? Yeah.
I'm actually a healthy human who wants to love. And this is just what comes of loving someone who engages in chronic betraying patterns.
Kelle: Jeez, my heart just breaks here. And that whole thought, I'm a damaged soul who settles for breadcrumbs like I'm so glad that you're not seeing it in that way and that you have a different, more empowering way to look at this. So many of us have worked too hard to make relationships work. Sometimes those relationships didn't have a chance because the other person was unavailable or refused to participate. So yeah, it's not your fault.
It's not even their fault, right? Because that's like them doing the best they can do with what they have, the tools that they have, how they grew up too.
Nina: Totally, And to compensate for the other person's unavailability, we sometimes work too hard. We may have done all or most of the work. This may mask the situation for a while, but we usually get tired. Then we stop doing all the work. We notice there's no relationship or we're so tired. We just don't care.
Kelle: Yeah, doing all the work in a relationship is not loving not giving not caring it's self-defeating and relationship defeating it creates the illusion of a relationship when in fact there may be no relationship there.
Nina: Yeah, it also enables the other person to be irresponsible for his or her share because that does not meet our needs. We ultimately feel victimized, right? This is exactly what happened in my marriage. In our best relationships, we all have temporary periods where one person participates more than the other, right? This is normal, but as a permanent way of participating in relationships, it leaves us feeling tired, worn out, needy, and angry.
We can learn to participate a reasonable amount, then let the relationship find its own life. Are we doing all the calling? All the repairing? Are we doing all the giving, all the waiting, the hoping, the work? When I answered these questions for myself, I started to pull back.
I withdrew and stopped enabling. His depression, drinking, and unhealthy coping behaviors spiraled, and I had to let the marriage go. This tendency of mind to over function though is something I wanted to look at. It's also a survival mechanism. This is called high functioning codependence.
Kelle: Yeah HFC for short. So let's explain. When you hear codependence, people often think of Melanie Beatty's work like Codependent No More, and assume you're someone who enables an alcoholic. Now, Melanie's work has evolved so much over time, but there's still that sort of stigma, right? And I just picked up that book again and was reading it and didn't really identify at all with that kind of codependency and thought, yeah, codependent in that way is not what we typically talk about when we talk about our clients and codependence.
Nina: We define codependence, Kelly and I do, as over and under functioning dynamics that create resentment and make people feel unknown. So let's say that again. Codependence is over and under functioning dynamics that create resentment and make people feel unknown.
So characteristics of someone who's HFC, right? High functioning, might be that they're exhausted and resentful, bitter. They feel underappreciated because they're doing it all, right? They're doing everything because if they don't do it, it won't get done or get done right. Sound familiar?
Kelle: Yep. This is for me and I know it lands for our clients and our listeners and so many there.
Nina: Totally. And that's what I think is interesting here. When we float the concept of codependence to our clients, they sort of glaze over because internally, they're like, me, codependent? That's BS, I'm not dependent on anyone. Everyone depends on me, right?
Like, no. So that lands for me too. But when I read Terry Cole's new book about high functioning codependence, I raised my hand unapologetically with no shame and took a step forward like, hi, I'm Nina, and I'm a high-functioning codependent.
Kelle: Yeah, yeah, totally. We'll link that book in the show notes, just FYI. And it's cool though, when we can name it, again, we can navigate it. So it makes sense that generalized codependency doesn't really land with everyone. It's the shade of high functioning codependence that really resonated with me and with Nina, and I know it resonates with our clients.
Nina: Yeah, so back to the basics here of what HFC looks like. We tend to maybe give unsolicited advice because we don't like to see people in pain. We know from coaching and if you've been a listener for a while that we cannot control how someone else feels, right? This is sort of a covert bid to control another person, which is a lie and impossible, but we convince ourselves otherwise, right? And we learn to do this for survival at some point in our lives.
This is fun, like fight, flight, freeze. It's a survival state. We learn to be super accommodating at some point in our lives, usually when we are young, to stay safe with a caregiver, to cope with dysfunctional behavior in our family of origin, and for many other reasons. There are many, but we're overly sacrificing as HFCs. We're sort of addicted to problem solving and we auto accommodate.
We bend over backwards to be "quote-unquote" helpful, but this is again sort of a covert bid to control how the person feels. We're very dialed into our environment and we take the temperature of the room, again, to try to feel in control of our surroundings. We sort of pretzel or shape shift to avoid confrontation or to deal with what needs to be dealt with. And yeah, we're absolutely doing more than we need to do in a bid to feel in control. A lot of people call this tendency self-abandonment.
And it feels that way. I felt that way. Like I had abandoned myself and my needs for years in my marriage and in other relationships in my life. But we overfunction because we don't want to leave anything to chance. It's a level of perfectionism.
We don't ask for help or often delegate for the same reason. Too much chance. What if it doesn't get done or done right? This is coded as threatening and so we overdo it all. Can you relate here?
Kelle: Yeah. And it's all sort of an illusion that we have it all together, right? I mean, some of the most ambitious and outwardly successful women we work with come coaching just totally internally scattered and angry and neglected. And there is a sense of feeling out of control.
Nina: And resentful, I'd say, Kel.
Kelle: Good call. And resentful, yes. They feel terrible and bitter because of this overdeveloped sense of obligation. It's just like resentment rash central. And I think part of this comes from the realization HFCs come to that no one is checking on them, right? Because they present in a way of, I have it all together. I can handle it. I got it. Totally.
Nina: And it costs us so much. I mean, for me, this coping mechanism, that's what codependence is, a coping mechanism or survival mechanism, starved me of rest and relaxation. I thought that was all lazy and indulgent. I literally felt uncomfortable sitting down on a Saturday afternoon to chill, which led to exhaustion and then burnout. And burnout is huge, like an epidemic right now for women, especially women who identify as HFC.
And it makes complete sense. And then there are all the other physical health problems that crop up, right? When we behave this way, like autoimmune disease, you know, TMJ, and other inflammatory responses. And all of this self-sacrificing and over-accommodating is reinforced by the society we live in, right? We're rewarded for it.
You've heard us talk about this before, but society rewards women and trains us in a way to be accommodating and self-sacrificing. And for me, I'm also the oldest child, and I think I told myself from a young age that I was overly responsible for my siblings, and that I had to be nice, polite, and strong so I wouldn't create any chaos in what was a little bit of a chaotic home. My mom had four girls in five years and it was a blast and it was stressful. It all belonged, right? But I definitely developed these tendencies at a young age and can see them play out in my marriage for sure.
So I started to dive into this concept and take responsibility for my side of the street, not the whole highway, both sides, the streetlights and the plantings. Right. I realized how I unwittingly rob people and often my favorite most loved people of their autonomy. I could see how this tendency didn't cause anyone's behavior, my ex's behavior, but definitely enabled it. What I'm learning now, as I look to remedy this way of being within myself and stop the cycle, is that I'm not responsible for everything.
Kelle: Yes, yes. And it's funny when you say that because of course you're not. It's just like, yeah, it's like, of course. And it sounds so basic.
Nina: I can love my people and not fix their problems. I can let the chips fall when they're not my chips. Allow people to get to their own bottom because I can't save them. In a basic sense, I'm learning to let go. If the relationship is meant to be, it will be, and it will become what is meant to be.
We do not help that process by trying to control it. We do not help ourselves, the other person, or the relationship by trying to force it or by doing all the work. I just do my share. And sometimes I feel like a slacker here, guys. I mean, it's like, I'm totally serious though.
It opens up so much bandwidth though for deeper connection when I don't try to force outcomes. So yeah, my practice right now is to stay on my side of the street, to not assume I know what's best for everyone, especially my kids. This happens in parenting all the time, right? We know from coaching that asking expansive questions invites people to grow and develop the self-esteem they need to overcome challenges. So I ask my kids really often now simply, how can I support you?
Instead of trying to like, you know, change or fix everything.
Kelle: Yeah, this is like a practice of radical self-awareness, Nina. You have to be radically self-aware and radically curious.
Nina: I love the word rad, but when we say radical here, it's like this huge mind-bending stretch we need to take. Radical curiosity and compassion are really stretching me and helping me grow.
Kelle: Yeah, I think HFCs in recovery learn to be with their uncomfortable feelings instead of function or do their way out of them, right? Learning to hold space for your discomfort and someone else's is key here. It's like kryptonite for the auto-accommodating and the auto-advising. Yeah, just let their chips fall.
Nina: Love them without fixing them. It sounds so basic, but I can see how this high functioning codependence showed up in my marriage. And again, not excusing his behavior, but I do this work because I don't want a repeat performance. I want to love deeply to be in a beautiful loving relationship someday. And understanding these things about myself, this awareness alone is where it all begins.
Kelle: Yeah. We always say Awareness is the first step in any long-term behavior change. It's where we start.
Nina: Yeah, and the self-awareness and self-acceptance is game-changing and shows me I'm healing and growing. My anger too shows me that that betrayal blindness is being deconstructed. I would be effing rabid if someone showed up to you or treated you this way, Kelle, right? So my anger belongs. My self-compassion belongs to my contempt belongs as does my self-forgiveness.
I'm so grateful for the perspective I've gained through this and it's been brutal just really really deep and hard work
Kelle: Mmm. Yeah, this is just us doing this work. Just like you we're in progress every day and we hope this is helpful for you.
Nina: I've called out two really killer resources in the show notes in case what I shared with you today resonates. The first is a podcast featuring Dr. Jennifer Fried, whose research on gaslighting and her invention of this acronym called DARVO has really helped me, as well as Dr. Romney's work on narcissistic abuse. And I also included a link to Terry Cole's book about high-functioning codependents.
So take a look at those.
Kelle: Ooh, okay. I've heard of DARVO. That is a whole nother episode.
Nina: Oh my gosh, yes. This is a communication tactic that's manipulative and that's basically the science behind gaslighting. And we love science, y'all. This stuff is real. Yeah, so please reach out if this resonated with you or if you need to talk with someone about your relationship, you are not alone.
We see you. What we all learn through mistreatment can help other people. That's what this is all about today.
Kelle: Yeah, and we are so here for you. Take care. And thanks so much for being here today.
Nina: Yeah, thanks for being here. See you next time.
Kelle: See you next time.
Nina: Hey everyone, if you want more live access to me and Kelle, you have to join our email list.
Kelle: Yes, we’ll come to your email box every Tuesday and Thursday.
Nina: You can ask us questions, get clarity and get coached.
Kelle: We offer monthly free email coaching when you’re on our list and you’re the first to know about trainings, events and other free coaching opportunities.
Nina: Just go to kelleandnina.com. That’s K E L L E and nina.com to sign up.
Kelle: Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of Ambitious-Ish.
Nina: If you’re ready to align your ambitions with your heart and feel more calm, balanced, and connected, visit https://www.kelleandnina.com/ for more information about how to work with us and make sure you get on our list.
Kelle: See you in the next episode!
Kelle Cobble: Yeah. Your people pleasing, your over functioning, your defensiveness, the way you might withdraw under conflict and even your perfectionism.
Nina: Yeah, these tendencies and ways of being kept you alive and safe at a time in your life when that was critical. And you've practiced them for years and years into adulthood.
Kelle: A big part of what we do in coaching is help our clients let go of these tendencies and controlling ways of being and learn how to find safety in healthier ways so they feel better.
Nina: That's where we're going today as I share what I've uncovered over the past year or so navigating a divorce, taking responsibility for what I can, understanding myself on a whole new level, getting angry unapologetically, forgiving but not forgetting, and how coaching and therapy have been essential along the way.
Burnout? Check. Daily overwhelm? Check. Resentment rash, stress, and a complete lack of well-being? Check, check, check! You’re not alone. We’re your hosts, Kelle & Nina, and we are here to help you feel calm, balanced, and empowered so you can redefine success, make choices that feel authentic, and ACTUALLY enjoy the life you work so hard to create. You ready? Let’s go.
Hey, I'm Kelle. And I'm Nina. Let's just have a little disclaimer here.
There might be some f-bombs arising while we're talking. So just so you know that if you have little ones around.
Nina: Put us in your earbuds, in your AirPods today.
Kelle: Okay, today Nina and I are having a candid conversation about what is happening in her life, what has been happening in her life, and where she started and where she has grown out of what has been going on with her circumstances. So Nina, go ahead, just let us know how you want to start here.
Nina: Sort of coming out of a cave. It's been a heavy lift the past year. Actually, this is the one year mark when my marriage sort of fell apart. And so it's been a big 12 months, very full. And I just wanted to share with the listeners the kind of tools and concepts I'm using right now.
As some of you know, I'm separated from my ex and I'm working through the divorce process. There was a lot of infidelity and broken trust in our marriage and we tried to work through it, but it just kept happening. And over the past year, I've had to take a look at things I was in denial about for a long time.
Kelle: Yeah, the story here isn't like one of a loveless marriage with a one-off betrayal, right? It's something that has been going on for a very long time.
Nina: Yeah, there was chronic dishonesty and dishonest behavior since the day we met, it turns out, you know, over 18 years ago. And a big part of what I've been working through this past year is what the fuck Nina, why did you stay? What has been going on here? Why am I this damaged soul who settles for breadcrumbs?
Kelle: Yeah, but you did file for divorce, right, Rockstar? You did say enough was enough.
Nina: Enough was enough. I've been just really ashamed of myself as I've opened up to friends and family about all of this and what I've been hiding for so many years.
Kelle: Which is so unnecessary, right? This shame. And we just love you and support you and see you for all of our favorite things about you and all of our highest wishes for you. And episode 23 alluded to some of this, and it's all about self-doubt, so check that out if you haven't already.
Nina: Yeah, and I mean, Kelle always reminds me, I don't like to tell this story like a victim. I am a survivor of a pretty toxic relationship and I was really confused for a long time. But with therapy and coaching, I've learned so much and amplified my self-awareness and self-knowledge that now I feel like I flipped the script, so to speak, and reframed so much of what I've been through in a more empowering and compassionate light.
But at the same time, in this process, being an ambitious-ish woman like so many of our listeners, you know, I want to take responsibility for what I can take responsibility for and not fall again, like into that victim mindset, complaining and blaming. And so much of my work has been taking a look at that this past year too.
Like I said, and like Kelle and I talk about in episode 14, blame is really disempowering.
Kelle: Yeah, we do not want to blame. We want to kind of what we always say is keep our side of the street clean. And so much of what we talk about here on the pod is work we do personally. There are so many examples and that episode was a great one. So number 14, it's called Blame, the hidden obstacle holding you back.
Nina: Yeah, so as we write and share this work with you we're very much practicing it. That's our point here this past year. I've done so much excavating and reflecting and understanding. I mean, I have a coach. I have a therapist.
I have a sponsor. I work with energy healers and intuitives. I chant and meditate and pray and do yoga and I race my bike and I run like Forrest Gump up in the preserve behind where I live. There's just a lot happening over here in processing and grieving and all the things. And I'm telling this story today to share with you all the concepts and tools that I'm leaning into and just to demonstrate how this work Kelle and I do is truly an authentic extension of what we do and how we show up in our lives. So I've uncovered big time this past year what I consider, you know, my flaws and defects are actually the survival mechanisms that have kept me safe.
So tendencies I've leaned on for survival in a toxic relationship And when I can see it this way and bring in the self-compassion, I can extend that compassion to so many others in my life and even my ex. I've just been buried, felt so misunderstood by myself and by others, but everything started to make sense when I asked for help.
Kelle: And this is so key. So many people, women especially, don't ask for help. It's kind of like this, I've got this message and what do I really have to complain about? This is probably as good as it gets like just looking at your life and being like I should be grateful almost we can't stand that it's so yeah just so toxic
Nina: and what I learned in therapy and coaching and something Kelle and I do a lot with clients is we help them name things. Emotions, tendencies, behaviors, we help them label them.
Kelle: Yeah, when we can name things, we can navigate them and this is gold. If there's a modality or a name, someone has studied it. It's science. Other people have experienced it. So you know that you're not alone.
Nina: This has been gold for me because I didn't have language to explain what I was going through. You don't know what you don't know and this clarity has been huge.
Kelle: Yeah, that's why Nina and I quote a lot of science when we coach clients. We intellectualize things and name them, label them, so there's this feeling of being seen and understood intellectually and emotionally and so much more.
Nina: Yeah. So getting vulnerable and asking for help has seriously, again, been gold for me this year. Some ahas and spiritual awakenings and just like, fuck moments, like slow-mo, like, oh my God. And so I also along the way, you know, want to take a look at my responsibility here, like Kelle said, clean up my side of the street.
Now I'm not taking responsibility for anyone's behavior, right? I know that's impossible. I can't control, fix, or change another human. I didn't cause his behavior. Can't control it, can't change it. But I do identify as codependent, and a very special shade of codependent that I want to bring to this conversation and to our ambitious listeners.
So I wanted to share some concepts and again, tools that are landing for me right now on this journey and I'll just unpack a few today. But you know, what happened to my marriage happened over the course of 18 years and that's what I've needed to look at. Like why? Why did I "let this happen"? What have been my boundaries and standards of conduct and how did I let them be so compromised?
That's when I learned about betrayal, trauma and betrayal, blindness, and found a whole lot of compassion for myself. I never knew was available to me as I continue to understand and find words and labels and names for what I'd been going through. I didn't have those. I just felt crazy.
Kelle: Yeah. And this is why we wanted to talk about this today and bring on your story and bring some labels to what has been happening. Bring some labels to, again, like putting words to it so that you know that this is not just a one-off. Like this happens to a lot of people and there's books on it, there's other podcasts on it and we just wanted to call it out so that our listeners, if you hear this and see yourself in it, like we just want to help where we can help here. And another thing is talking about boundaries.
We talked about boundaries in episode 33. And this is all just to show you that we do this work too.
Nina: Yeah. And so when I was studying boundaries and learned how to set effective ones, I sort of understood them as standards of conduct, right? If you haven't listened to that episode number 33, we talk about if you, then I will format the boundary setting. It's really useful. So I didn't learn boundaries originally in this way.
So go ahead and check that out. And again, I'm using it in real life, but one of the readings that landed for me when I was studying all this said that when your boundaries are violated over and over again, you're not a victim, but a volunteer. This was one of those like, fuck moments for me, like, whoa, I have some things to look at here. And, You know, my therapist and coach were quick to prop me up because of course my brain went straight to self-blame and shame, right? Like this is textbook behavior in kind of emotionally abusive relationships, self-blame, right?
So I try to see this and my actions with compassion. I've even gotten to gratitude, you know, thanking my ex for making it crystal clear to me what my standards of conduct actually are.
Kelle: Yeah, but let's back up because what happened here was manipulative. And I'll go so far as to say, Of course, what you just said, emotionally abusive, right? You also mentioned betrayal of blindness. So let's unpack this more. What does this mean?
Nina: Yeah, sure. So betrayal trauma is a thing. I didn't know that. It's the trauma that results when someone you trust betrays you. I didn't know this was called trauma what I was going through.
Now I understand. When it was introduced to me it made me feel so seen and understood. I started to understand why this has been so hard to move through. Trauma is deep. It cuts you at the core.
It rocks your safety at the root. It's confusing and deeply impacts your self-trust and safety. So naming what I'd been through as traumatic made a ton of sense to me. Someone needed to do it for me. Someone needed to hold up the mirror and do this for me.
And so, you know, it just really landed like my whole body relaxed with understanding and a sort of strange sense of relief.
Kelle: Yeah. And I'm guessing it's almost like a diagnosis, maybe not the kind you want, but it's a diagnosis. Nonetheless, it's putting words to what you're feeling and experiencing.
Nina: Totally. And my therapist has helped me work through the trauma with the modality called EMDR. It's been life-giving. EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And it's a technique that helps people process traumatic memories and other distressing experiences.
Kelle: Yeah, so it's like an emotional processing tool.
Nina: Right, because this trauma wasn't an isolated event. This has been going on for a long time, and I've needed some help processing all of it. It's exhausting and deep work. And there have been days when I can't come out of an EMDR session and see a client. And Kelle's been so supportive and helpful and has had my back big time here.
Kelle: Which is why I love so much that we are partners and we can have each other's back and do this work together. And then of course, like taking clients separately when we need to take clients separately and that is like Just the real beauty of this coaching work that we do together. Yeah of our collab. Yeah better together.
Nina: Yeah, but you know emotional abuse happens over time. It's not a one-off event. That's what makes it you know abusive and it's a pattern over time often in long-term relationships. I had no idea this was a thing and listen y'all I'm like not a dum-dum.
I'm kind of high-functioning I'm not a doormat so this can happen to anyone which is what I'm learning I didn't understand any of this
Kelle: And typically the one doing the betraying their personality is organized in a way that they can't be in a healthy, balanced, equitable relationship. So that's why they betray to get their needs met, right?
Nina: Right, and that's when the gaslighting and manipulation and chronic dishonesty come in. Oh, yeah, she's just a friend. I was making a big deal out of nothing. She's a co-worker. The inappropriate text messages were just a joke, you know, it went on and on.
Kelle: Mmm, totally. This is also why I'm guessing and it makes sense why you blamed yourself for so long that gaslighting and manipulation made you believe you were the
Nina: Listen, I am not perfect. I'm a total pain in the ass sometimes, but this was not my fault. This is part of what they call betrayal blindness. I really believed there was something I'd done or should do differently to prevent this mistreatment.
This thinking removed his fault because I told myself I was the problem. And betrayal blindness is a survival response. You tell yourself it isn't happening because the reality of the situation is so incredibly destabilizing, it's easier to be blind to it. It's a form of freeze or maybe even fun. One of the three survival states, right?
There's fight, flight, freeze and fun. And betrayal blindness is a survival mechanism. It made sense that I sort of went into denial. I wanted to avoid destabilizing something I needed or wanted to maintain the status quo, right? I was married with kids and had a house and extended family and the focus became so heavily in maintaining the status quo, what got missed was the toll it was taking on me, the person staying in the relationship, the harm happening under the radar and how this contributed to my like anxiety, helplessness, self-blame, hopelessness, confusion and self-doubt.
So like in maintaining that status quo and trying to just keep everything as is, I was psychologically eroding. And what I'm learning now though is my impulse to wanna stay in this kind of toxic relationship came not just from a good place, but like one of the best places, which is like my drive to love. I wanted to love this guy. This compassionate lens is where I go instead of I'm a damaged soul who settles for breadcrumbs, you know? Yeah.
I'm actually a healthy human who wants to love. And this is just what comes of loving someone who engages in chronic betraying patterns.
Kelle: Jeez, my heart just breaks here. And that whole thought, I'm a damaged soul who settles for breadcrumbs like I'm so glad that you're not seeing it in that way and that you have a different, more empowering way to look at this. So many of us have worked too hard to make relationships work. Sometimes those relationships didn't have a chance because the other person was unavailable or refused to participate. So yeah, it's not your fault.
It's not even their fault, right? Because that's like them doing the best they can do with what they have, the tools that they have, how they grew up too.
Nina: Totally, And to compensate for the other person's unavailability, we sometimes work too hard. We may have done all or most of the work. This may mask the situation for a while, but we usually get tired. Then we stop doing all the work. We notice there's no relationship or we're so tired. We just don't care.
Kelle: Yeah, doing all the work in a relationship is not loving not giving not caring it's self-defeating and relationship defeating it creates the illusion of a relationship when in fact there may be no relationship there.
Nina: Yeah, it also enables the other person to be irresponsible for his or her share because that does not meet our needs. We ultimately feel victimized, right? This is exactly what happened in my marriage. In our best relationships, we all have temporary periods where one person participates more than the other, right? This is normal, but as a permanent way of participating in relationships, it leaves us feeling tired, worn out, needy, and angry.
We can learn to participate a reasonable amount, then let the relationship find its own life. Are we doing all the calling? All the repairing? Are we doing all the giving, all the waiting, the hoping, the work? When I answered these questions for myself, I started to pull back.
I withdrew and stopped enabling. His depression, drinking, and unhealthy coping behaviors spiraled, and I had to let the marriage go. This tendency of mind to over function though is something I wanted to look at. It's also a survival mechanism. This is called high functioning codependence.
Kelle: Yeah HFC for short. So let's explain. When you hear codependence, people often think of Melanie Beatty's work like Codependent No More, and assume you're someone who enables an alcoholic. Now, Melanie's work has evolved so much over time, but there's still that sort of stigma, right? And I just picked up that book again and was reading it and didn't really identify at all with that kind of codependency and thought, yeah, codependent in that way is not what we typically talk about when we talk about our clients and codependence.
Nina: We define codependence, Kelly and I do, as over and under functioning dynamics that create resentment and make people feel unknown. So let's say that again. Codependence is over and under functioning dynamics that create resentment and make people feel unknown.
So characteristics of someone who's HFC, right? High functioning, might be that they're exhausted and resentful, bitter. They feel underappreciated because they're doing it all, right? They're doing everything because if they don't do it, it won't get done or get done right. Sound familiar?
Kelle: Yep. This is for me and I know it lands for our clients and our listeners and so many there.
Nina: Totally. And that's what I think is interesting here. When we float the concept of codependence to our clients, they sort of glaze over because internally, they're like, me, codependent? That's BS, I'm not dependent on anyone. Everyone depends on me, right?
Like, no. So that lands for me too. But when I read Terry Cole's new book about high functioning codependence, I raised my hand unapologetically with no shame and took a step forward like, hi, I'm Nina, and I'm a high-functioning codependent.
Kelle: Yeah, yeah, totally. We'll link that book in the show notes, just FYI. And it's cool though, when we can name it, again, we can navigate it. So it makes sense that generalized codependency doesn't really land with everyone. It's the shade of high functioning codependence that really resonated with me and with Nina, and I know it resonates with our clients.
Nina: Yeah, so back to the basics here of what HFC looks like. We tend to maybe give unsolicited advice because we don't like to see people in pain. We know from coaching and if you've been a listener for a while that we cannot control how someone else feels, right? This is sort of a covert bid to control another person, which is a lie and impossible, but we convince ourselves otherwise, right? And we learn to do this for survival at some point in our lives.
This is fun, like fight, flight, freeze. It's a survival state. We learn to be super accommodating at some point in our lives, usually when we are young, to stay safe with a caregiver, to cope with dysfunctional behavior in our family of origin, and for many other reasons. There are many, but we're overly sacrificing as HFCs. We're sort of addicted to problem solving and we auto accommodate.
We bend over backwards to be "quote-unquote" helpful, but this is again sort of a covert bid to control how the person feels. We're very dialed into our environment and we take the temperature of the room, again, to try to feel in control of our surroundings. We sort of pretzel or shape shift to avoid confrontation or to deal with what needs to be dealt with. And yeah, we're absolutely doing more than we need to do in a bid to feel in control. A lot of people call this tendency self-abandonment.
And it feels that way. I felt that way. Like I had abandoned myself and my needs for years in my marriage and in other relationships in my life. But we overfunction because we don't want to leave anything to chance. It's a level of perfectionism.
We don't ask for help or often delegate for the same reason. Too much chance. What if it doesn't get done or done right? This is coded as threatening and so we overdo it all. Can you relate here?
Kelle: Yeah. And it's all sort of an illusion that we have it all together, right? I mean, some of the most ambitious and outwardly successful women we work with come coaching just totally internally scattered and angry and neglected. And there is a sense of feeling out of control.
Nina: And resentful, I'd say, Kel.
Kelle: Good call. And resentful, yes. They feel terrible and bitter because of this overdeveloped sense of obligation. It's just like resentment rash central. And I think part of this comes from the realization HFCs come to that no one is checking on them, right? Because they present in a way of, I have it all together. I can handle it. I got it. Totally.
Nina: And it costs us so much. I mean, for me, this coping mechanism, that's what codependence is, a coping mechanism or survival mechanism, starved me of rest and relaxation. I thought that was all lazy and indulgent. I literally felt uncomfortable sitting down on a Saturday afternoon to chill, which led to exhaustion and then burnout. And burnout is huge, like an epidemic right now for women, especially women who identify as HFC.
And it makes complete sense. And then there are all the other physical health problems that crop up, right? When we behave this way, like autoimmune disease, you know, TMJ, and other inflammatory responses. And all of this self-sacrificing and over-accommodating is reinforced by the society we live in, right? We're rewarded for it.
You've heard us talk about this before, but society rewards women and trains us in a way to be accommodating and self-sacrificing. And for me, I'm also the oldest child, and I think I told myself from a young age that I was overly responsible for my siblings, and that I had to be nice, polite, and strong so I wouldn't create any chaos in what was a little bit of a chaotic home. My mom had four girls in five years and it was a blast and it was stressful. It all belonged, right? But I definitely developed these tendencies at a young age and can see them play out in my marriage for sure.
So I started to dive into this concept and take responsibility for my side of the street, not the whole highway, both sides, the streetlights and the plantings. Right. I realized how I unwittingly rob people and often my favorite most loved people of their autonomy. I could see how this tendency didn't cause anyone's behavior, my ex's behavior, but definitely enabled it. What I'm learning now, as I look to remedy this way of being within myself and stop the cycle, is that I'm not responsible for everything.
Kelle: Yes, yes. And it's funny when you say that because of course you're not. It's just like, yeah, it's like, of course. And it sounds so basic.
Nina: I can love my people and not fix their problems. I can let the chips fall when they're not my chips. Allow people to get to their own bottom because I can't save them. In a basic sense, I'm learning to let go. If the relationship is meant to be, it will be, and it will become what is meant to be.
We do not help that process by trying to control it. We do not help ourselves, the other person, or the relationship by trying to force it or by doing all the work. I just do my share. And sometimes I feel like a slacker here, guys. I mean, it's like, I'm totally serious though.
It opens up so much bandwidth though for deeper connection when I don't try to force outcomes. So yeah, my practice right now is to stay on my side of the street, to not assume I know what's best for everyone, especially my kids. This happens in parenting all the time, right? We know from coaching that asking expansive questions invites people to grow and develop the self-esteem they need to overcome challenges. So I ask my kids really often now simply, how can I support you?
Instead of trying to like, you know, change or fix everything.
Kelle: Yeah, this is like a practice of radical self-awareness, Nina. You have to be radically self-aware and radically curious.
Nina: I love the word rad, but when we say radical here, it's like this huge mind-bending stretch we need to take. Radical curiosity and compassion are really stretching me and helping me grow.
Kelle: Yeah, I think HFCs in recovery learn to be with their uncomfortable feelings instead of function or do their way out of them, right? Learning to hold space for your discomfort and someone else's is key here. It's like kryptonite for the auto-accommodating and the auto-advising. Yeah, just let their chips fall.
Nina: Love them without fixing them. It sounds so basic, but I can see how this high functioning codependence showed up in my marriage. And again, not excusing his behavior, but I do this work because I don't want a repeat performance. I want to love deeply to be in a beautiful loving relationship someday. And understanding these things about myself, this awareness alone is where it all begins.
Kelle: Yeah. We always say Awareness is the first step in any long-term behavior change. It's where we start.
Nina: Yeah, and the self-awareness and self-acceptance is game-changing and shows me I'm healing and growing. My anger too shows me that that betrayal blindness is being deconstructed. I would be effing rabid if someone showed up to you or treated you this way, Kelle, right? So my anger belongs. My self-compassion belongs to my contempt belongs as does my self-forgiveness.
I'm so grateful for the perspective I've gained through this and it's been brutal just really really deep and hard work
Kelle: Mmm. Yeah, this is just us doing this work. Just like you we're in progress every day and we hope this is helpful for you.
Nina: I've called out two really killer resources in the show notes in case what I shared with you today resonates. The first is a podcast featuring Dr. Jennifer Fried, whose research on gaslighting and her invention of this acronym called DARVO has really helped me, as well as Dr. Romney's work on narcissistic abuse. And I also included a link to Terry Cole's book about high-functioning codependents.
So take a look at those.
Kelle: Ooh, okay. I've heard of DARVO. That is a whole nother episode.
Nina: Oh my gosh, yes. This is a communication tactic that's manipulative and that's basically the science behind gaslighting. And we love science, y'all. This stuff is real. Yeah, so please reach out if this resonated with you or if you need to talk with someone about your relationship, you are not alone.
We see you. What we all learn through mistreatment can help other people. That's what this is all about today.
Kelle: Yeah, and we are so here for you. Take care. And thanks so much for being here today.
Nina: Yeah, thanks for being here. See you next time.
Kelle: See you next time.
Nina: Hey everyone, if you want more live access to me and Kelle, you have to join our email list.
Kelle: Yes, we’ll come to your email box every Tuesday and Thursday.
Nina: You can ask us questions, get clarity and get coached.
Kelle: We offer monthly free email coaching when you’re on our list and you’re the first to know about trainings, events and other free coaching opportunities.
Nina: Just go to kelleandnina.com. That’s K E L L E and nina.com to sign up.
Kelle: Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of Ambitious-Ish.
Nina: If you’re ready to align your ambitions with your heart and feel more calm, balanced, and connected, visit https://www.kelleandnina.com/ for more information about how to work with us and make sure you get on our list.
Kelle: See you in the next episode!
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